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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

Do you when remember the time the Americans shot down a civilian aircraft?

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/07 ... c-j19.html
On July 3,1988, as the Iran-Iraq War as approaching its conclusion, the USS Vincennes, a US Navy Ticonderoga class cruiser, was in the Strait of Hormuz as part of a mission ostensibly to protect commercial shipping in and out of the Persian Gulf. The US had been intervening on the side of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein in the brutal eight-year war against the Iranian regime, providing money, weapons, and military intelligence.

Forty minutes prior to the downing of Flight 655, one of the helicopters based on the Vincennes, while on a surveillance mission, purportedly took fire from Iranian gunboats in Iranian territorial waters. The Vincennes proceeded to pursue the gunboats into Iranian territorial waters.

The US government claimed that the crew detected a plane that was transmitting signals which identified it as a military aircraft and that it was rapidly descending towards their ship; these signals resulted in the crew mistaking the large Airbus A300 for a much smaller F-14 Tomcat, one of a handful of warplanes still remaining in Iran’s arsenal from the days of the blood-soaked US-backed regime of the Shah.

The Vincennes sent out multiple warnings to the plane on military channels, but since it was a civilian aircraft it could not possibly respond to such warnings. When Flight 655 was twelve and half miles from the cruiser, the ship fired two SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles, both of which struck the aircraft, blowing it out of the sky and killing everyone on board.

President Ronald Reagan, in a statement released shortly after the attack, called the shooting down of Flight 655 by the crew of the Vincennes a “proper defensive action.” Admiral William J. Crowe, Jr., the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, justified the downing of the passenger plane, saying that commanders on the ship had “sufficient reasons to believe their units were in jeopardy and they fired in self-defense.”

The US government’s initial claims about the circumstances surrounding the attack were eventually revealed to be false. Flight 655 was transmitting signals which clearly identified it as civilian and rather than descending as if to attack was ascending away from the Vincennes. Electronic records from the ship showed that this is exactly what the crew just prior to the attack detected.

The Pentagon eventually blamed human error as the ultimate cause of the attack and no one on board the ship or elsewhere in the US Navy was ever disciplined. The commanding officer of the Vincennes during the deadly attack, William C. Rogers, III, was awarded the Legion of Merit for “exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding services and achievements” in 1990.
In respect to this terrible accident... here is a very good article about who was potentially to blame.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/07 ... s-j19.html
The remarks Friday by President Barack Obama on the tragic crash of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine raised far more questions than they answered.

Obama continued the mind-numbing propaganda barrage from US officials and media, denouncing Russia and pro-Russian separatist forces in eastern Ukraine for shooting down the plane and demanding the surrender of the separatists to the Western-backed regime in Kiev. However, his remarks themselves underscored that this propaganda campaign has no factual basis whatsoever and is leading Washington into an explosive confrontation with Russia.

Obama said: “Here is what we know so far. Evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile that was launched from an area that is controlled by Russian-backed separatists inside of Ukraine. We also know that this is not the first time a plane has been shot down in eastern Ukraine. Over the last several weeks, Russian-backed separatists have shot down a Ukrainian transport plane and a Ukrainian helicopter, and they claimed responsibility for shooting down a Ukrainian fighter jet. Moreover, we know that these separatists have received a steady flow of support from Russia.”

Reread Obama’s comments carefully. You will see that nothing he said proves that pro-Russian forces fired a missile at MH17. Separatist rebels have shot down low-flying Ukrainian military aircraft with portable anti-aircraft missiles, but this does not mean they had either the intent or the capability to destroy a jumbo jet flying at 33,000 feet—an act they knew would hand Washington a massive propaganda weapon.

As for Obama’s claim that the separatists control the area from which the missile was fired, for which he presented no evidence, this means nothing given the chaotic conditions in eastern Ukraine. In the city of Donetsk, the stronghold of the anti-Kiev separatists, forces loyal to Kiev control the airport, from which they routinely shell the city. In fact, shortly before MH17 was allegedly destroyed by a BUK missile near Donetsk, the Kiev regime reinforced its anti-aircraft batteries in the region.

Remarkably, Obama went on to admit that his administration does not know who shot down MH17 or why. He said, “I think it’s too early for us to be able to guess what intentions those who might have launched the surface-to-air missile might have had… In terms of identifying specifically what individual or group of individuals, you know, personnel ordered the strike, how it came about—those are things that I think are going to be subject to additional information that we’re going to be gathering.”

Again, reread Obama’s statement carefully. Behind all the conditional statements and verbal hedging, he is saying nothing about who launched the strike. Obama’s remarks directly contradict those of his own UN ambassador, Samantha Power, who had just stated that there was “credible evidence” that Russia was responsible for the crash, adding, “Russia can end this war. Russia must end this war.”

Obama proceeded to throw a question mark over the entire coverage of the MH17 crash: “I want to point out there will likely be misinformation as well. I think it’s very important for folks to sift through what is factually based and what is simply speculation.”

The picture of the situation that emerges from Obama’s account is remarkable. By his own admission, the United States and its allies are hurtling toward a military confrontation with Russia, under conditions where the White House does not know who is responsible for the MH17 crash and believes powerful political forces are feeding misinformation to the media.

Having already admitted that the CIA did not bother to inform him before spying on German officials, Obama is apparently trying to figure out what his own government is doing—all the while irresponsibly denouncing Russia.
By far the best article so far on the crisis I have read.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
Little John

Post by Little John »

The degree of bullshit and outright lies about Russia, the separatists, the current conflict in Ukraine and this plane crash/shooting down in particular is staggering. We clearly are in full-on propaganda mode on the state media outlets. I've not taken the temperature of most of the folks I know, but it'll be interesting to see if sentiment about this conflict is finally turned in favour of our state's narrative in a way is has hitherto stubbornly refused to do. I certainly hope not.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

Yes, and we seem to have a new Foreign Secretary who is determined to do precisely the wrong things.
Little John

Post by Little John »

God help us, I thought it was bad enough on Radio 4. I hadn’t reckoned on the blatant, unadulterated lies being peddled by the various red tops and even the broadsheets to a more subdued extent. I've just been out for some milk to the local petrol station and took a quick scan of the headlines.

f***ing hell.
raspberry-blower
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Post by raspberry-blower »

An interesting analysis of the shooting down of flight MH17 - including a forensic interpretation of how it happened - can be found here
RESUME OF ANALYSIS: What all this means is that if a BUK rocket was launched from the territory controlled by the Militia, the Boeing would have fallen much further to the south-east – i.e. will into the Russian territory. Otherwise, there would have been not time to detect the aircraft, perform electronic capture and launch the rocket. If this was a BUK, and not a jet fighter, then it is most likely that the launch was made from the territory controlled by the Ukrainian army, and the rocket was sent “chasing after” the airplane.
It is self evident from the tabloids and the broadsheets that this incident is being used for a crude propaganda exercise to demonise the Russians and Putin - quite probably because of Russia's dropping of the petrodollar. (That hasn't been fully completed yet - not by a long way). What the tabloids and broadsheets are omitting (quite deliberately) are:
What the hell was a civilian jet doing flying in a combat site? Who directed that plane there and why?
The crash site being in a contested area. Both sides could potentially tamper with the crash site and corrupt the investigation.
Ukraine refusing to renew a ceasefire at the beginning of the month - along with Ukrainian bombing and shelling of civilian areas. Had there been a ceasefire, this situation would not have arisen in the first place.

Ultimately it is down to who benefits from all of this. It only ever "benefits" the Ukraine. Its military escapades in the breakaway East has been mired with poor tactics and general incompetence.

Edit to add: Ukrainian Security Service Confiscates Air Traffic Control Recordings with Malaysian jet
The simple answer would have come if Ukraine had merely released the Air Traffic Control recording from the tower and flight MH 17, something Malaysia did in the aftermath of the disappearance of flight MH 370, which at last check has still not been uncovered.

It now appears that answer will not be forthcoming because as the BBC reports "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."

What happens to the recordings next is completely unknown. What is known is that any hope of getting an undoctored explanation why the plane flew as it did, or what the pilots may have seen or said in the moments before the explosion, is forever gone.
In other words, even more fact-free confusion and speculation which is just what a propaganda-based reporting system needs.

And so, just like in the case of flight MH-370, what actually happened with MH-17 may never be known.
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
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Post by Tarrel »

stevecook172001 wrote:God help us, I thought it was bad enough on Radio 4. I hadn’t reckoned on the blatant, unadulterated lies being peddled by the various red tops and even the broadsheets to a more subdued extent. I've just been out for some milk to the local petrol station and took a quick scan of the headlines.

******* hell.
"We have always been at war with Eurasia."
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vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

raspberry-blower wrote:An interesting analysis of the shooting down of flight MH17 - including a forensic interpretation of how it happened - can be found here
RESUME OF ANALYSIS: What all this means is that if a BUK rocket was launched from the territory controlled by the Militia, the Boeing would have fallen much further to the south-east – i.e. will into the Russian territory. Otherwise, there would have been not time to detect the aircraft, perform electronic capture and launch the rocket. If this was a BUK, and not a jet fighter, then it is most likely that the launch was made from the territory controlled by the Ukrainian army, and the rocket was sent “chasing after” the airplane.
It is self evident from the tabloids and the broadsheets that this incident is being used for a crude propaganda exercise to demonise the Russians and Putin - quite probably because of Russia's dropping of the petrodollar. (That hasn't been fully completed yet - not by a long way). What the tabloids and broadsheets are omitting (quite deliberately) are:
What the hell was a civilian jet doing flying in a combat site? Who directed that plane there and why?
The crash site being in a contested area. Both sides could potentially tamper with the crash site and corrupt the investigation.
Ukraine refusing to renew a ceasefire at the beginning of the month - along with Ukrainian bombing and shelling of civilian areas. Had there been a ceasefire, this situation would not have arisen in the first place.

Ultimately it is down to who benefits from all of this. It only ever "benefits" the Ukraine. Its military escapades in the breakaway East has been mired with poor tactics and general incompetence.

Edit to add: Ukrainian Security Service Confiscates Air Traffic Control Recordings with Malaysian jet
The simple answer would have come if Ukraine had merely released the Air Traffic Control recording from the tower and flight MH 17, something Malaysia did in the aftermath of the disappearance of flight MH 370, which at last check has still not been uncovered.

It now appears that answer will not be forthcoming because as the BBC reports "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."

What happens to the recordings next is completely unknown. What is known is that any hope of getting an undoctored explanation why the plane flew as it did, or what the pilots may have seen or said in the moments before the explosion, is forever gone.
In other words, even more fact-free confusion and speculation which is just what a propaganda-based reporting system needs.

And so, just like in the case of flight MH-370, what actually happened with MH-17 may never be known.
A lot of BS. in the above. A 777 flying at less then 600MPH would be a piece of cake for a system capable of intercepting a fighter jet capable of mach 3 or better. It would be like shooting a parked car with a deer rifle. So it could just as well hit it in the nose as it enters the air space as it could chase up it's tail as it leaves. And unfortunately several military cargo planes use the same air frame and engines as civilian passenger jets so give off the same radar signature and fly at the same speeds and altitude. Once hit the only way it is going is down with a bit of wind drift. Reason for it being in that air space and the guy at the controls of the missile not knowing it was civilian is still in question but it is early yet.
The conspiracy nuts will have it shot down by the US's CIA from some secret space plane or some such nonsense in a day or two.
Little John

Post by Little John »

It's probably a lot more subtle than that, unlike the bullshit being whipped up by our MSM as part of an anti_Russian propaganda offensive.

Either it was shot down by the Kiev forces or the Eastern Ukraine forces by accident and now the offending side is on the propaganda defensive/offensive as damage limitation. The opposing side, is doing precisely the opposite. Either way, the USA is backing the Kiev forces irrespective. Russia, you may notice, has not yet engaged in the same propaganda bullshit.

Secondly, Ukraine is a theatre of war now. What the hell did people expect might happen, irrespective of who shot the plane down? It's funny (only without the laughs) how the USA has got precisely F--k-all to say about the 150-odd civilians killed by the Israelis in Palestine last night other than to make a sickeningly limp-wristed and disingenuous appeal to a "ceasefire".

As for full-on foul-play by the USA with regards to the downing of this plane, I think that highly unlikely. I don't think it impossible, however. I put nothing past your elites.

Nothing
vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

stevecook172001 wrote:It's probably a lot more subtle than that, unlike the bullshit being whipped up by our MSM as part of an anti_Russian propaganda offensive.

Either it was shot down by the Kiev forces or the Eastern Ukraine forces by accident and now the offending side is on the propaganda defensive/offensive as damage limitation. The opposing side, is doing precisely the opposite. Either way, the USA is backing the Kiev forces irrespective. Russia, you may notice, has not yet engaged in the same propaganda bullshit.

Secondly, Ukraine is a theatre of war now. What the hell did people expect might happen, irrespective of who shot the plane down? It's funny (only without the laughs) how the USA has got precisely ****-all to say about the 150-odd civilians killed by the Israelis in Palestine last night other than to make a sickeningly limp-wristed and disingenuous appeal to a "ceasefire".

As for full-on foul-play by the USA with regards to the downing of this plane, I think that highly unlikely. I don't think it impossible, however. I put nothing past your elites.

Nothing
Well that says a lot about your personal bias.
As to the decision to fly that route, several airlines also made the same decision concerning the danger and judged that they were flying high enough to be above the range of any renegade weapons and assumed that any high tech weapons would be in the hands of people with the competence to know what they were shooting at and responsible enough to know there was nothing to be gained by shooting down a commercial air liner. They were sadly wrong in that assessment but that does not lead to some evil intent on their part.
raspberry-blower
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Post by raspberry-blower »

vtsnowedin wrote: A lot of BS
I'm afraid VT, this is very true of your post.
vtsnowedin wrote:A 777 flying at less then 600MPH would be a piece of cake for a system capable of intercepting a fighter jet capable of mach 3 or better.
No such aircraft exists. Having a quick scan of the performance of front fighter jets of both Russian and NATO reveals no aircraft actually attains this performance (the nearest being the Mig-31).
This does not address, in any shape or form, a far more pertinent question: Why are the Ukrainians deploying a sophisticated AA missile battery in a combat site where the enemy does not possess an Air Force?
vtsnowedin wrote:And unfortunately several military cargo planes use the same air frame and engines as civilian passenger jets so give off the same radar signature and fly at the same speeds and altitude.
This is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin. Firstly. the downed aircraft was a Boeing 777. AFAIK neither the Ukrainian military nor the Russians/pro Russian separatists employ Boeing 777 for military purposes (or any other Boeing aircraft whether it be civilian or military for that matter). However this overlooks an even more basic point that you have totally ignored: All civilian commercial airliners have transponders that identify themselves to Air Traffic Controllers. Surely this was ON during the ill fated flight?
Reason for it being in that air space and the guy at the controls of the missile not knowing it was civilian is still in question but it is early yet.
So why have the Ukrainian authorities taken away the recordings of Ukrainian Air Traffic Controllers to the doomed Malaysian jet then?
vtsnowedin wrote: The conspiracy nuts will have it shot down by the US's CIA from some secret space plane or some such nonsense in a day or two.
Far too late for that VT. Already out there
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
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PS_RalphW
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Post by PS_RalphW »

There is a huge amount of fog of war on both sides of this story. I am not saying that either side is incapable of black flag operations but everything I have read about this, and the way that Putin and the rebels have behaved since it happened, all points to major cock-up by the rebels. They are clearly a two-bit operation who have little control in the chain of command, we are closer to failed state than either side is admitting. We are talking
local war lords running around with captured weapons and neither superpower is prepared to send in the heavies because it is too much of a flashpoint.

Everything else is just face saving propaganda.
Little John

Post by Little John »

PS_RalphW wrote:There is a huge amount of fog of war on both sides of this story. I am not saying that either side is incapable of black flag operations but everything I have read about this, and the way that Putin and the rebels have behaved since it happened, all points to major cock-up by the rebels. They are clearly a two-bit operation who have little control in the chain of command, we are closer to failed state than either side is admitting. We are talking
local war lords running around with captured weapons and neither superpower is prepared to send in the heavies because it is too much of a flashpoint.

Everything else is just face saving propaganda.
Where is this "fog of war" on the side of the rebels? They have simply not allowed the Yank-backed Kiev forces in to the site. They have allowed, however, international reporters in and have granted them full access to the crash site despite many of those international reporters pushing out blatant propaganda or downright lies on behalf of a Yank-led narrative. Firstly, that narrative attempted to paint the rebels as inhumane because they left the bodies in place. Then, when they collected them with local volunteers and placed them in refrigerated holding railway carriages, they were accused of "stealing" the bodies, despite this process being fully filmed by the international press, Meanwhile, the Kiev junta have confiscated the communication logs between the plane and the air traffic controllers and the Western press have got next to bugger all to say about this. Surprise, surprise. In addition to all of the above, the rebels have indicated that they more than willing to hand over the bodies to an independent international body. What they are not prepared to do is hand them over to the Yank backed Kiev forces. And I don't blame them. Additionally, in what way has Putin specifically behaved that contributes to the "fog of War" vis a vis this incident?

Fog of war on both sides my arse.
Last edited by Little John on 21 Jul 2014, 12:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by PS_RalphW »

Only after 2 days of keeping them out by firing over their heads.

Bunch of amateurs who realise they have committed mass murder and respond in the traditional Soviet way - get blind drunk and pretend it didn't happen.

Really you are as dogmatic as any poster on this site when your own beliefs are threatened.
Little John

Post by Little John »

PS_RalphW wrote:Only after 2 days of keeping them out by firing over their heads.

Bunch of amateurs who realise they have committed mass murder and respond in the traditional Soviet way - get blind drunk and pretend it didn't happen.

Really you are as dogmatic as any poster on this site when your own beliefs are threatened.
I'm not dogmatic in the least. Everything I have written on this thread with regards to this incident is the known facts (as sparse as they are) as opposed to blind parroting of fact-free propaganda coupled with an apparent underlying anti-Russian/Soviet sentiment if "... they have committed mass murder and respond in the traditional Soviet way..." is anything to go by. As for firing over the heads of the international press for two days, I will see where that has been reported and by whom before I comment. However, I might just point out that this is a theatre of war.

Edit to add:

I've just done a Google search and can find no mention of the rebels shooting systematically over the heads of international reporters following the plane crash. Please provide a link. But, in any event, even if they had, this in itself says bugger all about the rights or wrongs of this incident or even whether the rebels were responsible. What the hell would you expect them do do? They are fighting in a war zone.

As I have said previously on this thread, either side may have shot this plane down. However, as the few facts as are available are slowly leaking out, I see no evidence yet to lead me to conclude either side is responsible. I am seeing plenty of evidence, on the other hand, of the usual lies and propaganda drive being pushed out by an ever compliant MSM on behalf of the American government and their various Western cronies.
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PS_RalphW
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Post by PS_RalphW »

As a side note I thought it deeply symbolic and symptomatic that the refrigerated train ran out of fuel at one point.

This is how civilisations collapse.
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