Israel wants the Palestinian Gas

Blue Peter · Post by **Blue Peter** » 18 Jul 2014, 12:55

kenneal - lagger wrote:The Palestinians would say that it works both ways, I suppose. So we have a never ending cycle of killings and retaliation. It's an old fashioned blood feud on an international scale.

I think it's dangerous putting it that way, because it makes it sound like there are two equal parties involved. In reality there is an occupier and an occupied. Only one has the power to radically alter the situation,

Peter.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 18 Jul 2014, 13:25

Blue Peter wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:The Palestinians would say that it works both ways, I suppose. So we have a never ending cycle of killings and retaliation. It's an old fashioned blood feud on an international scale.
I think it's dangerous putting it that way, because it makes it sound like there are two equal parties involved. In reality there is an occupier and an occupied. Only one has the power to radically alter the situation,

Peter.

Yep. The Palestinians have no choice but to keep fighting until there are no Palestinians left, which may take quite a long time given that the Occupied Territories have the highest birthrate on the planet. The only side that can radically alter the situation is Israel, but I fear that they have left it far too long, and radically lack the goodwill/realism required to do it.

There are only so many ways this conflict can end, logically. A one-state solution, a two-state solution or the annihilation of one side or the other. A one-state solution is impossible because of the demographics - the Palestinians would overwhelm and eventually destroy the jews democratically. And a two-state solution becomes ever less likely as time goes by, because of the depth of the hatred and mistrust, and because it is impossible for the Palestinians to ever live peacefully next to a country that stole all of their best land. So it looks inevitable to me that this conflict will continue for a long time to come, but it CANNOT go on forever. Surely, it won't still be going on in 2000 years time, assuming the human race still exists? I think it has to end with victory for one side, and regardless of the fact that Israel currently has all the power, I believe that the Arabs will eventually win. Israel's power is entirely dependent on the US remaining the most powerful nation on earth, and that situation is not going to persist forever either, for reasons well understood by most of the regulars here.

I think this conflict is going to end in a very nasty war (far worse than anything since WWII), during which the Israeli state will inflict terrible damage on its Arab neighbours as well as the Palestinians, but ultimately Israel will lose that war because it will run out of the resources required to fight it and the United States will not be in a position to help.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 18 Jul 2014, 13:33

Tarrel wrote: I have to admit, taken as quoted, that does sound like a call to genocide.

Those who sow the wind will reap the whirlwind.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 18 Jul 2014, 13:44

Israel is (de facto) a relatively small state surrounded by large, and very antagonistic predominantly Muslim states. It only avoids being crushed by force of arms and is a highly militarised society with a small but high tech military industrial base and enough nuclear bombs to eradicate most of its neighbour's populations.

It is largely funded by first world backers in the global elite who ensure it receives premium treatment and attracts the best investment opportunities.

As we go through peak oil and the decline of Western industrial dominance this is an increasingly untenable situation. Human rights and morality let alone social justice have long since been dispensed with by the state as unaffordable luxuries. Backing down is not an option from the state's mindset. It will fight to the end, but peak resources and the march of history will overwhelm it eventually.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 18 Jul 2014, 17:45

It is telling that our neighbours who emigrated there do not intend to sell their house.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 18 Jul 2014, 18:19

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Tarrel wrote: I have to admit, taken as quoted, that does sound like a call to genocide.
Those who sow the wind will reap the whirlwind.

Out of random curiousity I just looked up the origin of this idiom. Turns out it comes from the Bible, and the "those" in question is none other than Israel.

http://biblehub.com/hosea/8-7.htm

…For from Israel is even this! A craftsman made it, so it is not God; Surely the calf of Samaria will be broken to pieces. For they sow the wind And they reap the whirlwind. The standing grain has no heads; It yields no grain. Should it yield, strangers would swallow it up. Israel is swallowed up; They are now among the nations Like a vessel in which no one delights.…

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 18 Jul 2014, 18:59

kenneal - lagger wrote:....It's an old fashioned blood feud on an international scale.

No it's not. To suggest it is implies that both parties are equally culpable in terms of starting the conflict and equally culpable/capable in terms of conducting that conflict. They are not on both counts.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 19 Jul 2014, 15:58

Hamas militants sent a donkey laden with explosives on a suicide mission in one of the most unconventional tactics yet seen in the fighting in Gaza, the Israeli army has said.

Troops said they were forced to open fire on the animal - blowing it up - as it approached their position in the southern city of Rafah, near the Egyptian border.

There is only one word for this... barbaric.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 19 Jul 2014, 16:05

Lord Beria3 wrote:
Hamas militants sent a donkey laden with explosives on a suicide mission in one of the most unconventional tactics yet seen in the fighting in Gaza, the Israeli army has said.

Troops said they were forced to open fire on the animal - blowing it up - as it approached their position in the southern city of Rafah, near the Egyptian border.
There is only one word for this... barbaric.

Not very barbaric compared to the behaviour of the Israelis. "Desperate" would be a good word for it. Or "ingenious". I doubt the donkey suffered for very long. I expect a lot of donkeys in the world suffer much worse deaths.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 19 Jul 2014, 17:10

No. Barbaric. Full stop.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 19 Jul 2014, 17:29

Lord Beria3 wrote:No. Barbaric. Full stop.

To who? The donkey, or the Israelis?

This is nothing compared to the Israeli tactic of collective punishment.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 19 Jul 2014, 19:10

Ha! Reminds me of an old Walker Texas Ranger episode. No problem showing men getting shot, or mowed down by his bad-ass truck. But a horse being shot? Hell no, can't show that. That'd be barbaric

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 19 Jul 2014, 19:24

Lord Beria3 wrote:No. Barbaric. Full stop.

Do you eat meat. Particularly, meat bought from standard retail outlets? If you do, then I'll show you barbaric.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 19 Jul 2014, 20:06

stevecook172001 wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:....It's an old fashioned blood feud on an international scale.
No it's not. To suggest it is implies that both parties are equally culpable in terms of starting the conflict and equally culpable/capable in terms of conducting that conflict. They are not on both counts.

It is now the mindset of a blood feud on both sides no matter who started it although I would agree that the strength of arms is more than a might one sided.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 20 Jul 2014, 15:26

Well, if we've moved on to donkeys, what about the olive trees?

Since 1967 Israel has destroyed 800,000 olive trees in Occupied Palestine in a 'scorched earth' policy to drive Palestinian farmers from their land. But the Tent of Nations farm near Bethlehem, which has lost 1,500 trees to army bulldozers, insists: "We will not be enemies ... Our response to this injustice will never be with violence, and we will never give up and leave."

http://www.theecologist.org/green_green ... _more.html