Israel wants the Palestinian Gas

[UndercoverElephant]

Palestinians need to accept that the 'right to return' just isn't realistic after over fifty years needs to get on with state building.

Ah, right. So after a length of time has passed, crimes cease to be crimes?

Tell that to the victims of Jimmy Savile and Rolf Harris.

I might also add that "we" have continued to pursue those guilty of crimes against the jews during WWII, even when they were in their 90s, well over fifty years after the crimes were committed. I am sick of these double standards. It's one rule of the US/Jews, and another for everybody else.

[UndercoverElephant]

They didn't set it up by force!

The UN brokered a agreement between the two sides. There is no reason why the two communities couldn't live in peace after 1947.

That is a complete misrepresentation of history. What were these "two sides"? Answer: one of them was the Palestinians - the sole rightful occupants of that land, and the other was a bunch of European Jews who had absolutely no claim to that land whatsover. How can you broker can agreement over land claims between two sides such as those? There was no "agreement". The Palestinians were the victims of the worst mass-crime in recent human history, and Israel had and has no right to exist.

You can deny this until the cows come home, and you can claim "pragmatism" and say Israel de-facto exists and must continue to do so, but there's hundreds of millions of people on this planet who are never going to agree with you. People don't just "forget" crimes of this magnitude.

[vtsnowedin]

The changing map is due to wars fought and lost by the Palestinians. When you lose a war you lose the ground you fought over.

Israel is a criminal state. It has no right to exist. Its existence is a criminal act, and the criminal involved was/is the United States of America.

Your punishment for this crime was 9/11. You deserved it. And you will get more.

I hope I have made myself clear.

Perfectly.

[Lord Beria3]

UE, your views are extremely stark and will mean there will never be peace in the ME.

Luckily, it really doesn't matter what any one of us thinks about the subject so I am not going to post any more on it.

Just to say that OF COURSE Israel is interested in the oil in Palestine! On that subject I suspect we can agree on something.

[RenewableCandy]

I heard somewhere that at least one part of what-is-now Israel was apparently bought fair-and-square by rich Jewish individuals. The problem is that they bought it from (Turkish) landlords, and completely overlooked dealing with the (Palestinian) tenents who actually lived there.

[UndercoverElephant]

UE, your views are extremely stark and will mean there will never be peace in the ME.

There will never be peace in the Middle East so long as the state of Israel exists. That's why it was the greatest crime against humanity I can think of. Stark it may be, but I believe it to be the truth. The founding of Israel on Palestinian land, especially after explicit promises were given by the British that this would not happen - promises we were not in any position to keep and which were ultimately broken by American Jews while the British were powerless to do anything about it - was an unparalleled catastrophe not just for muslims, but for everybody who isn't Jewish and maybe even for the Jews themselves.

Just to say that OF COURSE Israel is interested in the oil in Palestine! On that subject I suspect we can agree on something.

Yes, of course they are.

[UndercoverElephant]

I heard somewhere that at least one part of what-is-now Israel was apparently bought fair-and-square by rich Jewish individuals. The problem is that they bought it from (Turkish) landlords, and completely overlooked dealing with the (Palestinian) tenents who actually lived there.

Buying a piece of land in somebody-else's country is one thing. Buying a piece of land and claiming it to be an independent state is something else entirely.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/realstory.html

To better understand the Palestinian bid for membership in the United Nations, it is important to understand the original 1947 UN action on Israel-Palestine.

The common representation of Israel’s birth is that the UN created Israel, that the world was in favor of this move, and that the US governmental establishment supported it. All these assumptions are demonstrably incorrect.

In reality, while the UN General Assembly recommended the creation of a Jewish state in part of Palestine, that recommendation was non-binding and never implemented by the Security Council.

Second, the General Assembly passed that recommendation only after Israel proponents threatened and bribed numerous countries in order to gain a required two-thirds of votes.

Third, the US administration supported the recommendation out of domestic electoral considerations, and took this position over the strenuous objections of the State Department, the CIA, and the Pentagon.

The passage of the General Assembly recommendation sparked increased violence in the region. Over the following months the armed wing of the pro-Israel movement, which had long been preparing for war, perpetrated a series of massacres and expulsions throughout Palestine, implementing a plan to clear the way for a majority-Jewish state.

It was this armed aggression, and the ethnic cleansing of at least three-quarters of a million indigenous Palestinians, that created the Jewish state on land that had been 95 percent non-Jewish prior to Zionist immigration and that even after years of immigration remained 70 percent non-Jewish. And despite the shallow patina of legality its partisans extracted from the General Assembly, Israel was born over the opposition of American experts and of governments around the world, who opposed it on both pragmatic and moral grounds.

Let us look at the specifics...

The whole sickening story follows.

[biffvernon]

If a group of Muslims came and set up, by force, a self proclaimed caliphate in an English county, forcing the existing residents to flee for their lives from their land and property

Oh but it's not that bad - more like the locals were just herded into the Gower Peninsular (only without the rain) and not allowed to do anything.

I'm surprised that LB3 seem to have been accepting the BBC News version of current affairs. Who did what first is a bit silly since the dispute seems to go back to the Bronze Age when Moses led the Israelites out of bondage and into a land promised to them by their own mythology. Or perhaps earlier - how come they got into bondage in the first place?

I prefer to relate to history within my own living memory and that's why I think complying with UN Resolution 242 would be a good place to start from right now.

[UndercoverElephant]

Who did what first is a bit silly since the dispute seems to go back to the Bronze Age when Moses led the Israelites out of bondage and into a land promised to them by their own mythology. Or perhaps earlier - how come they got into bondage in the first place?

The entire myth is a lie. Just like The Gospels, when it was written it wasn't supposed to be historically accurate, but a story loaded with meaning. It was mythology to be "decoded" by those who understood the code, but was later confused with history. Moses and Jesus represent the same thing. The 40 years in the desert and 40 days in the desert represent the same thing. And so it goes on.

I mean honestly...who in their right mind can believe that Moses and the Jews spent 40 years wandering in the desert, where there was nothing to eat, leaving no traces behind them, and in the end made what would have been a 12 day journey from one place to another?

There was no exodus, no diaspora, no bondage in Egypt...none of it is historical fact. The reason there are jews all over the world is that before Christianity, Judaism was a proselytising religion that sought converts.

[biffvernon]

The entire myth is a lie.

Yep, that's kinda a feature of myths. Myths that are true are as rare as unicorns.

[UndercoverElephant]

The entire myth is a lie.

Yep, that's kinda a feature of myths. Myths that are true are as rare as unicorns.

Yes, but the Old Testament, and the New Testament for that matter, are not entirely mythological. Herod, for example, really did exist, as did various Egyptians who appear in the OT. And so did a person who spoke many of the words attributed to Jesus, etc...

The Bible is a mixture of historical fact, and stories that were never supposed to be fact, all mixed up together.

Nowhere more than the supposed history of the Jewish People has fiction/mythology been confused with history. The true history of Judaism is even more removed from what people, including the Jews themselves, actually believe, than Christianity is from what Christians believe. And that is saying something. By comparison, the true history of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and most other religions would be recognisable by most of the adherents of those religions. The reason for this difference is the particular tendency of Judaeo-Christian religion for using historical-sounding myths to convey philosophical-religious messages. This was widely understood before Christianity became the state religion of the Roman empire, and the all-powerful Roman church decided it wanted the literal reading of scripture to be the only acceptable one and started eliminating anybody who tried to claim it was a philosophical metaphor. They succeeded so well in this project, over a period of 1000 years of absolute power, that the truth remains largely un-understood even today, after a considerable effort to re-educate people about the real history and meaning.

[UndercoverElephant]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-90QLmTCZs

Please share. Post it on facebook, post it on twitter, post it on bulletin boards.

Not all Israelis are evil, only those who are in charge and those who support them.

[biffvernon]

Yes, that's the film the BBC won't show.

[UndercoverElephant]

Another one people might be interested. Did you think Michael Gove was a complete prick - an ignorant, arrogant, tory arsehole?

Well, actually he's an unspeakable c**t.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Vl9EUtpEE

I'm proud to be a Zionist.

Yep, you read it correctly. Just when you thought he couldn't get any worse, he gets much worse.

[biffvernon]

That is one amazing speech. He's been moved from education to chief whip so will have a slightly lower profile.