stevecook172001 wrote:
In relation to these things, at least, I think we can say our secular culture is superior and we should not be afraid to say it.
I'm not in any way arguing that you shouldn't claim that our culture is 'superior' (which is to say morally superior). My point is merely that this is also what Muslim extremists do. And stating it doesn't make it so.
It's terrifying that humanity only seems to be able to resolve this by the use of force.
stevecook172001 wrote:
In relation to these things, at least, I think we can say our secular culture is superior and we should not be afraid to say it.
I'm not in any way arguing that you shouldn't claim that our culture is 'superior' (which is to say morally superior). My point is merely that this is also what Muslim extremists do. And stating it doesn't make it so.
It's terrifying that humanity only seems to be able to resolve this by the use of force.
I think it comes down to resource in the end. Imagine a world where there were unlimited resources. Imagine how so many of the things about which we think we fight would simply evaporate as issues.
In other words, many/all of the conflicts we self-delusionally ascribe to deeply felt cultural/philosophical/political/economic issues, really stem from far more mundane material issues such as land and water. But, we humans just love a narrative so we make up after the fact stories to cover our moral blushes and, in doing so, allow ourselves to do terrible things to each other.
stevecook172001 wrote:
In other words, many/all of the conflicts we self-delusionally ascribe to deeply felt cultural/philosophical/political/economic issues, really stem from far more mundane issues such as land and water. But, we humans just love a narrative so we make up after the fact stories to cover our moral blushes and allow us to do terrible things to each other.
I actually don't agree with that. I agree it's probably true from the secular perspective, but many religious people would consider their ideology to have a much higher degree of importance than resource-grabs for their own sake. In fact I've read it's considered one of the most powerful ways to evangelise for the Christian faith - demonstrate your disinterest in power and resources. You can see what a turn-off it is when people do the opposite.
I've been reading a lot recently about how Christians went about trying to convert people from totally different cultures, and one of the most important things they had to realise was how much that seemed absolutely true was actually only culturally true. So I've become quite sensitive to noticing things that are stated as universal when they're probably not.
I think I have to agree with Tess on the issue of 'what your fighting for': to the West, resources may well be the most important issue. But to Islam the resources issue, although still a feature, is not the most important aspect. Faith, ...no not faith, but self-assuredness of their correct interpretation of the word of god drives them. The way of Islam allows no cherry picking of ideals. Unlike most western faiths that are open to personal & institutional interpretation and choice.
The crazy thing is that all the Muslims taking to arms against each other is in direct violation of the brotherhood of Islam as laid out in the Quran. Unless of course they are seeing the alliance with the west as a sign of apostasy, which I suppose is possible.
It will not end well, is I'm sure, something we can all agree on.
The only wine I drink is some dark coloured stuff that comes in a cardboard box from Aldi. It's called "Vin de Tablé" and comes, I believe, from the ancient, renowned French wine growing region of of La Tablé.
I'll get my coat....
Only joshing.....
Not that struck on wine myself, but my wife and her sister love it. I've found the only kind of wine I really like tends to be the expensive kind.
Last edited by Little John on 01 Jul 2014, 04:00, edited 2 times in total.
Tess wrote:
It's terrifying that humanity only seems to be able to resolve this by the use of force.
It's not humanity. Most of us are able to come together in a rules-based-system and more or less cooperate. Even today our democracies still more or less function.
The problem is states that are run by thugs. We need to figure out a durable, long lasting way to rein in the thugs. And turn-the-other-cheek sadly isn't going to cut it.
La Diligence? One of the best wines to come out of the Napa Valley.