EU immigration row / time to get out

[UndercoverElephant]

UKIP have beaten Labour in Doncaster.
UKIP on course to have their first Scottish MEP.

[UndercoverElephant]

I don't think people are voting ukip because of Europe. I think they're voting ukip because they aren't libdems, tories or labour, all of whom have failed in their manifesto promises over the past few years and all, if you ask me, for the same reason.

I can't agree with that. Disgruntlement with the mainstream parties is part of equation, but not the main part, IMO. This really is about Europe. It's about the fact that there has to be an in/out referendum, and there is no prospect of the mainstream parties giving us one, and about worries about immigration that are common to many other western european countries. There is also a political earthquake going on in France as we speak, where the National Front have gone from 5th to 1st, for exactly the same reason - worries about immigration. It looks like the Schengen agreement may have to be repealed. It may be that the price of saving the EU is to change the policy on freedom of movement.

When UKIP fail in the same way (and for the same reasons), we might see some progress.

It will certainly be interesting to see what UKIP actually do with their new power. Not very much, I suspect.

[RenewableCandy]

I can't imagine they have, collectively, the experience to get very much done in Europe, good or bad. My guess is that they'll just take the money and run.

You're probably right about Schengen, though.

[UndercoverElephant]

I can't imagine they have, collectively, the experience to get very much done in Europe, good or bad. My guess is that they'll just take the money and run.

I am guessing there is going to be a new grouping formed. UKIP are going to have the largest number of UK MEPs, and the Front National will have the most French MEPs. That's a pretty big rump for an anti-EU grouping in the European parliament.

I think it is going to force the hand of the tories. They are going to have to become more anti-european.

[boisdevie]

I can't imagine they have, collectively, the experience to get very much done in Europe, good or bad. My guess is that they'll just take the money and run.

I am guessing there is going to be a new grouping formed. UKIP are going to have the largest number of UK MEPs, and the Front National will have the most French MEPs. That's a pretty big rump for an anti-EU grouping in the European parliament.

I think it is going to force the hand of the tories. They are going to have to become more anti-european.

I do like to hear the mainstream politicians saying 'we feel your pain' and then carry on as usual. I think IKIP have done well because people are really sick of mainstream politics not delivering. I wonder if this is the beginning of the end of business as usual, at least in politics?

[UndercoverElephant]

I can't imagine they have, collectively, the experience to get very much done in Europe, good or bad. My guess is that they'll just take the money and run.

I am guessing there is going to be a new grouping formed. UKIP are going to have the largest number of UK MEPs, and the Front National will have the most French MEPs. That's a pretty big rump for an anti-EU grouping in the European parliament.

I think it is going to force the hand of the tories. They are going to have to become more anti-european.

I do like to hear the mainstream politicians saying 'we feel your pain' and then carry on as usual. I think IKIP have done well because people are really sick of mainstream politics not delivering. I wonder if this is the beginning of the end of business as usual, at least in politics?

It looks like the end of European politics as we've known it since the 1970s. And I'm guessing that what just happened is also going to change British politics forever. UKIP are now going to cause chaos until the "European question", which has been buried for 30 years, is finally addressed. There has to be a referendum, nobody has any idea what the result will be, but one way or another it is going to have a big effect on the future relationship between the UK and the EU.

[biffvernon]

Election results (1932)



The European Union was created to make the repetition of history less likely.

[UndercoverElephant]

Election results (1932)



The European Union was created to make the repetition of history less likely.

The European Union was created as a union of a handful of countries with a shared culture and a standard of living reasonably close to each other. It now consists of 28 countries, where the standard of living ranges from quite high to quite low. The Schengen agreement made sense at the start, but now it is asking for problems.

How long until the penny drops, BiffVernon? Take a long, hard look at the election results from last night, not just in the UK but in France. The longer people like YOU refuse to accept the realities of immigration, the more people will feel forced to vote of UKIP and the Front National.

The immigration problem is not going to go away, BiffVernon. You and the rest of the euro-dreamers are soon going to be faced with the following choice:

(1) Repeal the Schengen agreement and put a FULL STOP to economic migration within the EU.

(2) Sit back an watch the inexorable rise and rise of right wing parties everywhere in western Europe, with the probable exception of Germany.

You want BAU. You can't have it. UKIP's "political earthquake" actually happened last night, and an even bigger earthquake happened in France. If you and those like you respond by digging your heels in and refusing to change, you will simply become an ever-diminishing minority, overwhelmed by anti-immigration, anti-EU parties on both the extreme right and the extreme left.

You have been warned. You were warned that this would happen, and it is now happening. You do not want to listen.

[biffvernon]

You want BAU.

You talking about me? In which case you are wrong. I neither want nor expect BAU.

I want a global equalisation of wealth and an end to the activities that cause global warming.

A side effect of wealth equalisation would be a removal of a major migration incentive. Anti immigration policy tends to be a defence of wealth inequality.

[RenewableCandy]

I want a global equalisation of wealth

Well yes but the removal of borders is SO not going to achieve that.

Marvellous Other 1/2 is an immigrant. Even he says, there really should be (in any country) some kind of "quality control" going on about who is allowed to come and work, settle, own property, whatever, particularly if the country offers free education (as Russia does) or healthcare (as the UK does, after a fashion). If that means being "judgemental" (gasp!!) about potential people then so be it. This extends to, for example, the idea that people from overseas who do not pay UK tax should not be allowed to own property here (because that raises the price everyone else has to pay).

[biffvernon]

I didn't say removal of borders was going to achieve wealth equalisation. I was pointing out that I did not want BAU. Rather different issues.

Your other 1/2 view would lead to some types of people being allowed to move about the world while other types, maybe those not so intellectually endowed for instance, having to stay at home. I think that wrong in a really bad way.

[UndercoverElephant]

You actually want something even worse than Euro-BAU. You want to expand the model that is not working in Europe, and which has led directly to the rise of the far right and the far left, to an even wider area. Follow the logic, Biff. If a bit of X has caused this much support for the far right, what do you think will happen if you expand X?

We've told you over and over again, but you just don't get it. When ordinary people here people like you advocating policies like that, their natural, and entirely justified, reaction is this: "Oh shit. We need to vote for UKIP [or the Front National]. Who else is going to protect us from this madness?"

But all you can do is advocate even more madness, and then you wonder why the far right is on the rise??

There has been much wailing and gnashing of teeth in my social circles, both online (facebook) and among my colleagues at the volunteer-run local newspaper I help to produce. "Oh my God! UKIP! What is happening???" I wonder how long it is going to be before they work it out.

[UndercoverElephant]

I didn't say removal of borders was going to achieve wealth equalisation. I was pointing out that I did not want BAU. Rather different issues.

Your other 1/2 view would lead to some types of people being allowed to move about the world while other types, maybe those not so intellectually endowed for instance, having to stay at home. I think that wrong in a really bad way.

Why? Presumably because you think there is no problem with the criminals, nutters and the genetically stupid of other nations coming here?

Personally I would advocate zero (net) immigration, but I can accept that there some special cases. Those cases would be people who are indisputably useful to our society and/or economy, not just a random selection including the "intellectually not so well endowed."

We have enough of our own idiots, thankyou very much.

[biffvernon]

Criminals, nutters and the genetically stupid of other nations? We have plenty of them in the UK. You seems to be talking in terms of immigration into the UK. I'm looking for a world in which all people are free to live in whichever region of the world they choose, irrespective of the place of birth, the place of birth of their parents thei hair colour, their skin colour or whether they are criminals, nutters and the genetically stupid. Of course the last three categories will need to be suitably cared for for their own and other people's safety. I want to have the right to move to Yorkshire, Scotland, Belgium, or Mongolia should I so choose. Chances are I'll stay put, because, like most people in the world, I like what I'm used to. But unless I can move I am not free, I am a prisoner.

[biffvernon]

If you are worried that removal of all border controls in the world would result is a sudden great influx of migrants into the UK, then you should consider why the UK is so much more preferable to the rest of the world (I don't think it is, but that's by the by). Maybe we should ensure that the rest of the world is not so much worse than the UK.