EU immigration row / time to get out

[jonny2mad]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

It takes at least 40 minutes even with a group of people to kill a bull with your bear hands especially if the object is to make it suffer so it gives its power to the zulu king .

beating the bull trying to break its neck break its limbs, the bull screaming

Zuma the president attends this cultural ceremony you know the guy who the west handed over the several million white south africans too so they could be human victims.



http://stonedhogblog.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... ruits.html

[biffvernon]

Rather like Spain.

[UndercoverElephant]

Stop putting words into my mouth.

I made a long, detailed post explaining precisely what I meant. I don't need you to warp it into something completely different and ignore what I actually posted.

You made a confused rant

There was nothing confused about it, and it wasn't a rant.

which attempted to conflate culture, technology and system of government - a definition of 'culture' which seems to be unique to you.

No it isn't.

I am at a loss to understand your claims about my views on Sharia

You accused me of "islamophobia" for stating that Islam was a dangerous religion, bent on domination, that is trying to drag humanity back to the past.

Condemnation of a law or system of government - not racist.

Condemnation of Islam because that law of system of government occurs within a predominantly Islamic country - racist.

Hope that clears things up.

It clear up nothing. I am condemning Islam because it is a barbaric religion which is bend on domination and trying to drag humanity back to the past. That is not complicated, and its not racist either. It's just the way things are.

[UndercoverElephant]

Culture != Technology.

There's no way this flies.

http://www.janegoodall.ca/about-chimp-behaviour.php

Try learning something for a change.

[biffvernon]

Advanced culture; example?
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04 ... 1398684052

[AndySir]

Culture != Technology.

There's no way this flies.

http://www.janegoodall.ca/about-chimp-behaviour.php

Try learning something for a change.

Well I did learn something. Here's an interesting definition from Laland and Hoppitt ("Do animals have culture?" J. Evolutionary Antropology, 12, 150-159).

Cultures are those group-typical behavior patterns shared by members of a community that rely on socially learned and transmitted information.

I think it's pretty thin in the context of the debate, but I'm happy to concede the point as your blatantly racist comments about Islam above rather concedes to me the argument.

[jonny2mad]

Andy Sir its very ignorant of you to ignore my arguments please answer me

[jonny2mad]

Rather like Spain.

Well in spain you do have bull fighting or we have boxing and we did have hunting foxes with hounds and some people bait badgers illegally.

I'm not sure thats entirely the same and you dont have cameron attending a meeting where young men rip to pieces a bull to get the "magical power " from the bull by means of torture .

But yep lots of cultures have had cruelty to one degree or another.

If you were to import enough zulu my guess is it would be more likely that we would see the new fruits ceremony here, would animal rights people see that as a step forward or backwards in animal welfare in the uk

[AndySir]

Andy Sir its very ignorant of you to ignore my arguments please answer me

Call me ignorant, I don't think your posts are worthy of reading - let alone replying to.

[Catweazle]

Is these anyone on this forum who would suggest that a culture that allows a girl to be stoned to death for being raped is really the equal of our own culture ?

I would love to hear the reasoning behind that.

[jonny2mad]

Andy Sir its very ignorant of you to ignore my arguments please answer me

Call me ignorant, I don't think your posts are worthy of reading - let alone replying to.

Yes you are ignorant and quite rude and you seem content to be that way



Now if what you think had any logic you would be able to defend it, me I will debate anyone thats why I'm on a open forum, doesn't bother me that you won't debate me .

Catweazle andy sir would suggest that both cultures are equal, he wont examine that logic, but thats what he seems to think

[Catweazle]

Let's not confuse culture with race.

[AndySir]

How can a culture which allowed the systematic genocide of Mau Mau in Kenya, systematically raped and tortured people in gulags worthy of the Third Reich be equal to that of Pakistan?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ody%20link

We are often willing to assign a collective responsibility to crimes committed in other cultures, but refuse to accept that responsibility for our own. How many times have people on this board said that the invasion of Iraq was nothing to do with them? No, no it was those nasty politicians. Not the British, not our culture. It's ultimately just a grisly form of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

I've tried to make the point before, but I'll try again in a different form of words. I find opposition to Islamic totalitarianism to be moral, but opposition to Islam because of the crimes committed in Islamic countries to be prejudice and therefore immoral.

[Little John]

How can a culture which allowed the systematic genocide of Mau Mau in Kenya, systematically raped and tortured people in gulags worthy of the Third Reich be equal to that of Pakistan?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ody%20link

We are often willing to assign a collective responsibility to crimes committed in other cultures, but refuse to accept that responsibility for our own. How many times have people on this board said that the invasion of Iraq was nothing to do with them? No, no it was those nasty politicians. Not the British, not our culture. It's ultimately just a grisly form of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

There are psychopaths at the top of any civilization and the West is no more immune to the shit that they instigate any more than the East or anywhere else. However, below those psychopaths is the underlying culture of a region and it's people's. The underlying culture of this region and it's peoples largely left behind (though not entirely) the kind of medieval treatment of women that is still entirely prevalent in other regions, for example, several centuries ago. That's far from saying that there are not other, real problems still prevalent in this culture. But, the stoning of women for the crime of being raped is not one of them. And the lack of separation of state and church, more generally, is also not one of them.

None of the above is something I dwell on at particular length. For me, my problem with the levels of immigration to this island are to do with economic and social upheaval in the short term and ecological unsustainability in the longer term. The cultural flash points, where they occur, tend to do so largely on the back of competition for scarce economic resources. However, all of the above has been further exacerbated by a lack of exertion of cultural pressure by successive governments on incoming ethnic groups who have not, as a consequence of a lack of said cultural pressure, made any significant attempt to culturally integrate. So much so that there are now whole swathes of northern cities where English is approaching a second language and is certainly a second culture. This is not idle talk on my part. I know this because I have taught in them. To a significant extent, I do not blame those groups who have come to this island and have not integrated. The fact is, that takes a lot of effort and if there is no pressure to do so, then people will stuck with what they know. The English were no better when they colonized, by force, much of the east in previous centuries. And pretty ugly it was too. In the end, a lack of cultural assimilation ends badly for one group or another and that is something to be avoided at all costs.

I should add, here, I do not have a problem with people who would define themselves as Muslim any more than I have problem with people who would define themselves as christian. I do have a problem, however, with Islam in the same way I have a problem with Christianity due to the fact that both of these religions (along with the other monotheistic religions) have been responsible for more murder, mayhem and misery in the world than just about any other form of human belief systems. And radical Islam, along with radical any other dammed religion is my enemy and the enemy of my culture which managed, after several centuries of struggle and bloodshed, to put the monster of religion back in it's box. The problem is that the Islamic world has [largely] yet to go through that process and a lot of the difficulties that exist between the religiously tamed Christian West and the far less religiously tamed Islamic East stem from that lack of similarity of cultural progression

Finally, of course, none of the above is helped by successive military adventures in the Middle East and elsewhere leading to many in those incoming groups to quite correctly assume that our authorities consider their blood to be cheaper than ours.

It's a mess alright.

None of which changes the argument, however, about economic and ecological sustainability

[UndercoverElephant]

But, AndySir, the Nazis were following their own cult and their own, self-created set of rules and goals. Islam could not be more different. It is an organised religion based on a text written in the 7th century, and although there are several different variations of that religion (the followers of the main two of which have spent most of the last 13 centuries slaughtering each other), they are all based on that text itself. OK? There is no such identifiable thing as "nazism" that one could coherently oppose - you can only oppose very right wing people. Although if there was, then, presumably, according to your own messed up understanding of morality, it would be immoral to oppose it because this would be "prejudice". That's pretty f***ed up.

Your views on this are absolutely repulsive. You are point blank refusing to condemn Islam for what it quite obviously is. Not only that, but you are accusing other people of blatant racism for pointing out the true horrors done in the name (and the letter of the law) of Islam. You claim that "opposition to Islam because of the crimes committed in Islamic countries is prejudice and therefore immoral." Really? It is immoral to oppose a religion which advocates the death penalty for rape victims??? Or are you saying that these crimes have nothing to do with Islam?? And you actually think you are taking the moral high ground and accusing others of being immoral?????

Sorry, mate, but in a morality contest between yourself and Jonny, Jonny wins by a country mile.