EU immigration row / time to get out

[AndySir]

It is simply a fact. Do you wish to deny it? Do wish to deny that Zimbabwe, for example, is culturally backwards? Go on. I dare you.

Wait, what? You're saying that you're not racist or xenophobic, you just think that certain cultures are inferior? Or are you quite happy with the belief that other cultures are inferior (however you would term it), but don't think that it's linked to your fear of immigration?

[UndercoverElephant]

It is simply a fact. Do you wish to deny it? Do wish to deny that Zimbabwe, for example, is culturally backwards? Go on. I dare you.

Wait, what? You're saying that you're not racist or xenophobic, you just think that certain cultures are inferior?

I said "backwards", as in "less developed", and YES. Do you think there is a contradiction there? Because there is not. Racism is the discrimination against people based upon their race. Xenophobia is a dislike of foreigners. Neither of these things are necessary or implied with a belief that some places are more culturally advanced than others. It is a simple fact, whether you like it or not, that some parts of the world "developed", culturally, while others remained in a culturally more primitive state. If I were to say that this is evidence that those places are inhabited by "racially inferior peoples" and then use this to try justifying discrimination against those people, then I'd be a racist. If I were to say "therefore I don't like people who don't come from my own culture", then I'd be a xenophobe. But I'm not saying either of those things, am I? All I am saying is something that is an undeniable fact.

Or are you quite happy with the belief that other cultures are inferior (however you would term it), but don't think that it's linked to your fear of immigration?

I do not have a "fear of immigration". I am opposed to more immigration, which is not quite the same thing. Stop misrepresenting and misquoting people. You do it all the f***ing time, in order to prop up your arguments, which otherwise would be revealed as very weak.

But to answer the question you were trying to ask me, no, my opposition to more immigration into this country has very little to do with culture and almost everything to do with sheer numbers of people. The one exception to this is Islam, which I believe to be a dangerous religion which has shown itself to be bent on domination rather than integration. This is a special case. Islam itself might well be argued to be "culturally backwards", not least because many of its proponents are trying to drag our civilisation back to the 8th century, literally.

[AndySir]

I think I've quoted this before:

"Racism and racial discrimination are often used to describe discrimination on an ethnic or cultural basis, independent of whether these differences are described as racial. According to the United Nations convention, there is no distinction between the terms racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination, and superiority based on racial differentiation is scientifically false, morally condemnable, socially unjust and dangerous, and that there is no justification for racial discrimination, in theory or in practice, anywhere."
"International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination". Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights.

So you're happy with being racist, you just quibble about the terminology. That's great. Admission of Islamophobia is just a bonus.

[UndercoverElephant]

I think I've quoted this before:

"Racism and racial discrimination are often used to describe discrimination on an ethnic or cultural basis, independent of whether these differences are described as racial. According to the United Nations convention, there is no distinction between the terms racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination, and superiority based on racial differentiation is scientifically false, morally condemnable, socially unjust and dangerous, and that there is no justification for racial discrimination, in theory or in practice, anywhere."
"International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination". Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights.

So you're happy with being racist, you just quibble about the terminology. That's great. Admission of Islamophobia is just a bonus.

Again, you demonstrate your rank inability to hold an adult, rational discussion on this topic. All you want to do is make an accusation of racism. You are not apparently bothered whether that accusation has been justified, or makes the slightest bit of sense.

Here is the claim I have actually made: Some cultures are more advanced than others.

FACT: there are still some places on this planet, just one or two but they still exist, where people live in the same way that humans lived for thousands of years before the invention of civilisation.

According to your repulsive attempt at discussing this topic, that I am quoting the above fact makes me a racist, because I am "discriminating on a cultural basis."

I have not read so much utter crap on an internet forum since I stopped posting on fundamentalist Christian boards.

You have to face certain realities, AndySir. One of those realities as that not all human cultures are the same and that there is such a thing as cultural progress. That means that there really are such things as "primitive cultures". And I think you should not forget that you are talking to a professional forager. I actually teach people to forage for wild food for a f***ing living!! I teach people the very skills that these "primitive cultures" require to survive and that "advanced cultures" have forgotten, and now romanticise. Yet, according to you, I'm "a racist" because I've made the claim that some cultures are more advanced than others, implying that I think the skills I teach people are characteristic of people worthy of discriminating against.

Now, shall we start again, and this time you try to use that brain that nature gave you, instead of typing offensive, irrational nonsense into your keyboard?

Let's start with this:

(1) Do you accept that not all cultures are the same, and that there is such a thing as cultural progress? YES OR NO.

(2) If your answer to (1) is yes, does this make you a racist?

[AndySir]

Yes cultures are different, no there cannot be such a thing as cultural 'progress'. Culture is identity, progress requires improvement - a better or worse state. There can be no such thing as a better or worse identity.

You appear to be using culture to mean level of complexity, by your comparison to hunter-gatherer societies. In which case your assertion that Zimbabwe is culturally backwards (less complex) makes no sense as it has the same structural complexity as any other nation state. Central government, code of laws, democracy etc.

Pick whatever one you choose, you're left with a choice of outright prejudice or prejudice by ignorance.

You're not worried about an influx of !Kung now, are you?

[3rdRock]

I must have missed an episode folks.

When did Powerswitch become the Undercover Steve Show?

[UndercoverElephant]

Yes cultures are different, no there cannot be such a thing as cultural 'progress'. Culture is identity, progress requires improvement - a better or worse state. There can be no such thing as a better or worse identity.

Nonsense. I did not attach any moral judgement or assessment of what is "better", for the rather obvious reason that our "developed" culture is destroying the ecosystem, and from that point of view it would be crazy to call that "better" than a system which persisted for thousands of years without destroying the ecosystem. Regardless of this, there has been a progression of cultural states. I cannot comprehend why anybody in their right mind would try to deny this. Human culture started with the ability to light fire and cook food, and then went through various stages which have given names to eras in human history. You know - "the stone age", "the bronze age", the iron age". There has also been a progression in the way we are organised - from wandering tribes to fixed-location villages and then city states and then nations. There has been philosophical progress, scientific progress, progress in systems of politics. I'm sorry, but if you try to deny this then I'll have no option but to conclude you are completely and utterly insane.

You appear to be using culture to mean level of complexity, by your comparison to hunter-gatherer societies.

Nope, I'm using the term "culture" to mean the whole gamut of human experience. I'm talking about philosophy, art, science and technology, systems of governance, etc... The comparison to hunter-gatherer societies is unavoidable because they were the initial state. That's where we started, and we've ended by creating a corporate/techno-industrial monster that is eating the planet. In between was a progression of states.

In which case your assertion that Zimbabwe is culturally backwards (less complex) makes no sense as it has the same structural complexity as any other nation state. Central government, code of laws, democracy etc.

Well, now you know what I mean by "culture" you don't need the above strawman any longer. I have described Zimbabwe as culturally backwards because the prevailing culture in that country has not incorporated some important things that have been achieved elsewhere. We are talking about a place where people are still persecuted for being witches. And that is just one example. I could give you many more, but I should not need to.

Pick whatever one you choose, you're left with a choice of outright prejudice or prejudice by ignorance.

I have not said anything that indicates I am "prejudiced" against anybody at all. All I have said is that there is such a thing as cultural progress.

[UndercoverElephant]

I must have missed an episode folks.

When did Powerswitch become the Undercover Steve Show?

Are you suggesting I'm Steve Cook's sockpuppet?

[RenewableCandy]

UE has a real name and a website where you can book sessions looking for mushrooms (in the SE of England somewhere). SteveCook lives just down the road from me here in Viking City. Both are real people: there's only one non-genuine poster on Board and I think we all know who that is

[Little John]

Thanks for clarifying that RC.

The irony of all of this, of course, is that real, ordinary working class people who are NOT racist or xenophobic, but who are reaching genuine economic breaking point and, in the case of some towns not so far from here as it happens (Boston for example), reaching social breaking point as well are, as a consequence of all proper avenues for expression of their concerns about open borders immigration in the MSM being shut down by a liberal intelligentsia (because it's economic and social consequences are not felt by them) via the smearing any such concerns as being racist, being driven into the arms of actual xenophobic political organizations such as UKIP and worse.

In other words, the responsibility for the rise of the xenophobic right both here and across Europe can be laid squarely at the feet of people like Andysir and Biff Vernon.

[AndySir]

Of course the alternative is that we are asked by UE to believe that the concern over immigration is purely one of sustainability - that in the event of a cataclysm so great that we would be unable to trade with the outside world we would be unlikely to be able to feed our existing population through subsistence farming.

Personally I'd be more worried about the mutant zombie bikers myself.

Alternatively we are asked by SC to believe that it's concern for the working man who may lose his job. Naturally with net migration sitting at around 200,000 for the last 10 years we have seen a massive rise in unemployment. Oh no, wait. We haven't.

[UndercoverElephant]

As usual, you've managed to be offensive without intending to be offensive. That doesn't mean you aren't being offensive. I am NOT a racist. I believe it is absolutely wrong to discriminate against people based upon their race, or their sexuality or anything else that they have no control over and which has no direct effect on anybody else. I am not making this up; it's actually true. If you don't want me to get angry/rude, then please consider when posting in this thread whether you are posting something which insinuates that other people (notably Steve and myself) are racists. If you think there is a possibility that your posts can be interpreted this way, then make it clear that you are NOT trying to imply this, and then we won't get angry/rude.

Eh? How can my post, which included the phrase "I've never said that anyone on PowerSwitch is racist" possibly be interpreted as implying that I think you are racist? What have I said that was offensive?

The large pink-red box, which clearly implied that there is something wrong with people being concerned about immigration at the same time as you saying somebody is racist. Put that together and you're saying the same thing that AndySir is saying more directly: "anybody who is worried about immigration is a racist." I'm saying I'm worried about immigration, that means you're implying I'm a racist.

[UndercoverElephant]

Of course the alternative is that we are asked by UE to believe that the concern over immigration is purely one of sustainability

Why is that so hard to believe? I mean, why on Earth would anybody think that 70-odd million humans living on a rather small island is too much already?

There is no way that this island can support that many people without either importing a large amount of resources from elsewhere or radically changing our way of life in wildly unrealistic ways (e.g. everybody becoming a vegetarian and nobody driving a car.)

Personally I'd be more worried about the mutant zombie bikers myself.

Well, that's your choice and you're welcome to it.

Alternatively we are asked by SC to believe that it's concern for the working man who may lose his job. Naturally with net migration sitting at around 200,000 for the last 10 years we have seen a massive rise in unemployment. Oh no, wait. We haven't.

Jesus. What we have seen is both a rise in unemployment and a serious deterioration in the quality of employment. What we now see is zero-hours contracts, people being shafted by their employers in myriad ways because they are terrified of losing their jobs, people being forced into temporary and part-time work because they can't get permanent, full-time positions, etc, etc, etc... This is a direct result of immigrants coming here looking for work and the offshoring of jobs to places like India where there is abundant cheap labour.

[jonny2mad]

Yes cultures are different, no there cannot be such a thing as cultural 'progress'. Culture is identity, progress requires improvement - a better or worse state. There can be no such thing as a better or worse identity.

You appear to be using culture to mean level of complexity, by your comparison to hunter-gatherer societies. In which case your assertion that Zimbabwe is culturally backwards (less complex) makes no sense as it has the same structural complexity as any other nation state. Central government, code of laws, democracy etc.

Pick whatever one you choose, you're left with a choice of outright prejudice or prejudice by ignorance.

You're not worried about an influx of !Kung now, are you?

I prefer my identity to say for example a ancient aztec to me thats a worse identity, most humans in human history have been tribal they prefer their own family to complete strangers .

We have a long history of war between groups of humans defending the interests of Their tribe thats because they prefer their tribe to them its better than the other .

I think you and biff need to sit down and watch territoriality in the natural world, I dont know where the hell you get your notions but their really odd

[UndercoverElephant]

https://www.newsday.co.zw/2013/10/07/wi ... ased-bail/

The two suspected “witches” who caused a stir in Budiriro high density suburb early last month, after being caught semi-naked in a suspected act of witchcraft, were today released on $200 bail each by Mbare resident magistrate Reuben Mukavi.

This was after the pair’s lawyer Tawanda Takaindisa told the court that his client’s identities and their places of residence had been verified by the State.

Below are photos showing the alleged ‘witches’ as they leave Mbare Magistrates Court.

[article ends]

comments:

Fatso October 7, 2013 at 8:19 pm #

Sad how Zimbos believe such crap and hating each other on suspicions of witchcraft.

Wilberforce Majaji October 8, 2013 at 8:40 am #

Witchcraft is a specialty not only practiced by Zimbas, but by the whole of humanity anywhere and everywhere. Whilst these two could have been well choreographed comic actors of the biggest grandeur Witches have been in existence long before you existed and will be here long after you’re gone. Our knowledge or lack thereof does not completely erase them from existence. Look around you , they are there all the time.

demo ramdara October 7, 2013 at 8:33 pm #

END TIMES IS NIGH

totemless October 7, 2013 at 10:12 pm #

they were never witches . zanu pf magistrate wanted to antagonise them only .

analsty@byo October 8, 2013 at 7:24 am #

@totemless r u real sure tht thy were never witches or u r one of them.In ths case Zanu pf inopinda papi

gilbert magwasha October 8, 2013 at 7:40 am #

The more Zimbabwe declines economically and socially the more Zimbabweans will believe in these witches thing. When any society is underdeveloped the more deep are its beliefs in witchcraft. Most of you will remember our entire cabinet’s trust in that diesel n’anga came at a time when this country was at its worst economically. Need I say more.

https://www.newsday.co.zw/2014/04/26/mu ... ate-roads/

April 26th, 2014

PRESIDENT Robert Mugabe yesterday said he was horrified by the state of roads across the country.

NDUDUZO TSHUMA

He also said a Cabinet committee has been set up to look at the country’s water after experts condemned water in all cities as unsafe.

Officially opening the 55th edition of the Zimbabwe International Trade Fair (ZITF) in Bulawayo, Mugabe said the state of the country’s roads was appalling.

“I was looking at the road from the airport to here. It was as if it was made in 1924 when I was born. If you put a bit of cement on it to level it, decorate it and put a bit of shoulders to the roads as others do,” he said.

“Look at us wearing these suits and old men like myself, if that road is newer than when I was born in 1924, it must show that it is modern. The councils will say they do not have money, but where does the money go? We pay rates, the Ministry of Local Government must be jerked up to jerk up the councils.”

Mugabe said government should also look at dualising roads and not only surfacing them, adding that many lives were being lost on the country’s roads during public holidays.

Mugabe also said there was need to protect water bodies after the country received lots of rains.
“We have a problem with sewage, there is sewage flowing all over. Are we drinking clean water? Doctors said we do not have clean water in all cities,” Mugabe said.

“We have set up a committee in Cabinet immediately to clean the water. God has given us good rains and rivers are full, but we do not want that water soiled.”

Mugabe said the ZITF was also an occasion for Matabeleland to have its own cattle showcase as the breeders could not transport all their cattle to the Harare Agricultural Show.

“I am sorry to say that we come at a time when so many cattle were decimated by the drought of the previous year. With the good rains we had this year, we will recover,” Mugabe said.

Mugabe said there was need to improve the country’s infrastructure, particularly roads.

He bemoaned the sanctions slapped on Zimbabwe, blaming the United States for imposing the measures in reaction to the country’s land reform programme.

He said the US needed to understand that God gave people power over their resources and failure to do so was in contempt of the Lord.

Mugabe reiterated his Independence Day speech that the indigenisation drive had been misrepresented and misinterpreted.

“There is no expropriation or nationalisation of shares held by non-indigenous persons in companies as some of our detractors would want the world to believe,” Mugabe said.

He said any equity that an indigenous person takes up would be disposed at fair value.

“In fact, there is no imposition of indigenous partners on foreign investors, instead investors are free to identify partners of their choice.

“With this clarification, let me take this opportunity to invite potential investors to come and do business in Zimbabwe in which there is huge potential for joint venture partnerships between investors, manufacturers, industrialists and the public sector.”

No such thing as cultural progress? No society "better" than any other, just "identity"?

I'm not even going to start on the concept of "indigenisation" referred to above.