The crisis in Ukraine
Moderator: Peak Moderation
The crisis in Ukraine
I have started this thread to bring together and sum up my view on developments in Ukraine. I have held off making any comment till now until I could get up to speed and do a bit of reading:
From what I have read, Ukraine’s economy has been in the shitter for the last few years since the 2008 crash, much like many other countries. Over the last several months the USA and EU have been making vague promises to Ukraine in return for greater allegiance to the EU and the West more generally. Over the last few months there has also been growing civil unrest in Ukraine, largely on the back of ever greater difficulties ordinary people are having with the basic cost of living, All the usual stuff in other words (or at least, usual these days). When the Ukraine government decided to do a significant economic and trade deal with Russia, the USA and EU took the hump and decided to back and/or partially orchestrate a coup-de-ta in Ukraine, disguised as a kind of Ukrainian "spring". The trouble was, in order to do this, they had to get into bed with some pretty unsavoury political movements in Ukraine ranging from the merely extreme right to outright fascist thugs. Those fascists are now more or less in charge in Kiev. All the while, this has been portrayed in Western media outlets as the "will of the Ukrainian people. I, however, have seen little evidence of that apart from a few pretty staged-looking congregations in Kiev. Meanwhile, across much of the Eastern flank of Ukraine, all hell is breaking loose (again, barely reported in Western media). Severable cities have thrown the existing administrations out and have declared autonomy from Kiev. And, of course, in Crimea, where there has been the greatest unrest, outright defiance of Kiev has occurred and has led to Russia sending in the troops and Crimea voting for independence in a referendum.
The USA administration and its cronies have f***ed up royally with their public (and almost certain covert) backing of a fascist coup in Ukraine. Instead of being able to portray it to their own populations and the rest of the world as a Ukrainian "Spring" they have, instead been left floundering on the propaganda front and are frantically engaging in double-speak damage limitation. All the while, Putin is no doubt laughing his tits off at the perfect excuse to grab a part of Ukraine back into the Russian fold.
In terms of the results of that referendum, it might help to understand the demography of the Crimea:
Given the history of greater Ukraine and Crimea one might expect the ethnic Russians to vote for independence and the Tarters to be the least inclined to do so and a mixture of responses in the other ethnic groups. What those demographics mean is that, if we accept the referendum numbers of 95% of 81% of the population voting for independence (and we have no reason not to since even the USA has not seriously contested them) and we further conservatively assume a minimum number of Tartars voting for independence, then we may makes some reasonable inferences: namely that the vast majority of non-Tartars must have voted for independence for the numbers to stack up. The only alternative is that they did not vote for independence in such vast numbers, which could only mean that a significant proportion of Tartars voted for it. Either way, the result is utterly unambiguous. The only way to avoid that conclusion is to try and argue that a monumental electoral fraud has taken place. However, there is no credible evidence for such a fraud.
Also, I would note that I have just discovered that whilst the Russians vetoed military observers, both they and the Crimeans invited international electoral observers in to monitor the elections. But the USA politically vetoed such an observational team. One can only speculate that the reason was because they knew well enough what the democratic outcome would be and did not want to be placed in a position of having to corroborate and validate that outcome. By not having electoral observers, they are better placed to make fatuous accusations of electoral fraud/electoral intimidation. Not that I am suggesting that these will not have occurred to at least some extent.
I should also make clear I am not cheering Russia and Putin here. Obviously, there is a larger geopolitical game being played in the Ukraine. Quite apart from the historically strategic importance of Crimea and greater Ukraine to Russia (being, as it is, on its borders), it is also about the valuable undersea oil and gas reserves off the Crimean peninsula. I hardly need to tell folks on here that we are entering a very dangerous phase of international relations and that much of the so-called political "Springs" and various conflicts that have occurred around the world in recent years (many of which have been USA inspired/orchestrated, as it happens) are a part of that unfolding crisis. Ukraine being just the latest development.
There is another possibility, though. It is at least possible that the West has deliberately engineered losing the Crimea from the start in order to fully incorporate the rest of Ukraine and that Russia may even know and understand this and all the major players are simply going through the motions. Also, it will certainly benefit the Kiev administration to not have to appease all those ethnic Russians in Crimea in any future elections. I see no obvious evidence for the above being deliberately orchestrated, but I do understand the logic of the argument.
Anyway, that's where I am currently. Anyone has differing views, I'd be glad to hear them
From what I have read, Ukraine’s economy has been in the shitter for the last few years since the 2008 crash, much like many other countries. Over the last several months the USA and EU have been making vague promises to Ukraine in return for greater allegiance to the EU and the West more generally. Over the last few months there has also been growing civil unrest in Ukraine, largely on the back of ever greater difficulties ordinary people are having with the basic cost of living, All the usual stuff in other words (or at least, usual these days). When the Ukraine government decided to do a significant economic and trade deal with Russia, the USA and EU took the hump and decided to back and/or partially orchestrate a coup-de-ta in Ukraine, disguised as a kind of Ukrainian "spring". The trouble was, in order to do this, they had to get into bed with some pretty unsavoury political movements in Ukraine ranging from the merely extreme right to outright fascist thugs. Those fascists are now more or less in charge in Kiev. All the while, this has been portrayed in Western media outlets as the "will of the Ukrainian people. I, however, have seen little evidence of that apart from a few pretty staged-looking congregations in Kiev. Meanwhile, across much of the Eastern flank of Ukraine, all hell is breaking loose (again, barely reported in Western media). Severable cities have thrown the existing administrations out and have declared autonomy from Kiev. And, of course, in Crimea, where there has been the greatest unrest, outright defiance of Kiev has occurred and has led to Russia sending in the troops and Crimea voting for independence in a referendum.
The USA administration and its cronies have f***ed up royally with their public (and almost certain covert) backing of a fascist coup in Ukraine. Instead of being able to portray it to their own populations and the rest of the world as a Ukrainian "Spring" they have, instead been left floundering on the propaganda front and are frantically engaging in double-speak damage limitation. All the while, Putin is no doubt laughing his tits off at the perfect excuse to grab a part of Ukraine back into the Russian fold.
In terms of the results of that referendum, it might help to understand the demography of the Crimea:
Given the history of greater Ukraine and Crimea one might expect the ethnic Russians to vote for independence and the Tarters to be the least inclined to do so and a mixture of responses in the other ethnic groups. What those demographics mean is that, if we accept the referendum numbers of 95% of 81% of the population voting for independence (and we have no reason not to since even the USA has not seriously contested them) and we further conservatively assume a minimum number of Tartars voting for independence, then we may makes some reasonable inferences: namely that the vast majority of non-Tartars must have voted for independence for the numbers to stack up. The only alternative is that they did not vote for independence in such vast numbers, which could only mean that a significant proportion of Tartars voted for it. Either way, the result is utterly unambiguous. The only way to avoid that conclusion is to try and argue that a monumental electoral fraud has taken place. However, there is no credible evidence for such a fraud.
Also, I would note that I have just discovered that whilst the Russians vetoed military observers, both they and the Crimeans invited international electoral observers in to monitor the elections. But the USA politically vetoed such an observational team. One can only speculate that the reason was because they knew well enough what the democratic outcome would be and did not want to be placed in a position of having to corroborate and validate that outcome. By not having electoral observers, they are better placed to make fatuous accusations of electoral fraud/electoral intimidation. Not that I am suggesting that these will not have occurred to at least some extent.
I should also make clear I am not cheering Russia and Putin here. Obviously, there is a larger geopolitical game being played in the Ukraine. Quite apart from the historically strategic importance of Crimea and greater Ukraine to Russia (being, as it is, on its borders), it is also about the valuable undersea oil and gas reserves off the Crimean peninsula. I hardly need to tell folks on here that we are entering a very dangerous phase of international relations and that much of the so-called political "Springs" and various conflicts that have occurred around the world in recent years (many of which have been USA inspired/orchestrated, as it happens) are a part of that unfolding crisis. Ukraine being just the latest development.
There is another possibility, though. It is at least possible that the West has deliberately engineered losing the Crimea from the start in order to fully incorporate the rest of Ukraine and that Russia may even know and understand this and all the major players are simply going through the motions. Also, it will certainly benefit the Kiev administration to not have to appease all those ethnic Russians in Crimea in any future elections. I see no obvious evidence for the above being deliberately orchestrated, but I do understand the logic of the argument.
Anyway, that's where I am currently. Anyone has differing views, I'd be glad to hear them
Last edited by Little John on 18 Mar 2014, 11:59, edited 1 time in total.
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This article backs up Steve's analysis very well and helps explain why the results of the referendum was so overwhelming.
Would NATO seriously risk war for an illegitimate, fascistic coup leadership in Ukraine? I hope not..
NATO, the EU and the US have been effectively checkmated in their plans for Ukraine. The coup leaders are irrelevant on the international stage (besides lacking credibility additionally the Ukrainian fleet has defected, the air force is grounded and the army is held up by peace protestors) and if the Ukrainian regime attempts any provocation of the Russians, there is only ever going to be one outcome.Soon, however, it began to be clear that the US was not willing to go to war over Crimea or the Ukraine. Predictably, in the confrontation between Barak Obama and Vladimir Putin Obama blinked first. The referendum which the US tried so hard to prevent went ahead, and its results are an absolute disaster for the USA. There are now some pretty good signs that the USA is throwing in the towel (Moon of Alabama has two good pieces on that; see here and here) and that the West is seeking a way out.
This shows that Obama did much more than just "blink first". This shows that when push comes to shove, Russia has enough military power and political determination to deny the US Empire one of it's most important strategic objectives: pretending to be the sole superpower. If the collapse of the US policy on Syria was a painful embarrassment, what just took place in the Ukraine is something of an entirely different order of magnitude: Russia slapped down the EU, NATO and the US and came on top of a confrontation in which down to the last minute the West tried to bluff its way to victory and instead only achieved a full-spectrum defeat.
Would NATO seriously risk war for an illegitimate, fascistic coup leadership in Ukraine? I hope not..
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
By a "certain way", I assume you mean biased. What tendency to view things in a biased way has been in evidence here?Snail wrote:George Galloway and his tendency to view things in a certain way.
I am not suggesting I don't have biases, of course. We all have biases. However, I try to minimise them and, where I choose not to, ensure that they are not hidden from either myself or others. Please do take issue with any of the points I have made and I will be happy to read them and respond. In the absence of that, your suggestion of bias is a bit meaningless.
- RenewableCandy
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I'm not singling just you out, of course, but also posts in the previous thread and the blogs that people link to (singling too strong a word in any case). I do think some bloggers have carved a niche and are gaining from that niche.
But..
Russia did invade Ukraine. Why is this never mentioned.
The vote was taken in a territory occupied by large numbers of men with guns.
Ukraine and people who lived there has a long and bloody history from Russian involvement, and yet so many non-russians voted this way. This and the speed of the referendum (no time to stop and consider things) is enough to question its legitimency.
Ukraine lies between 2 powers and so is manipulated by both the EU/west and Russia. If Ukraine is within Moscow's sphere, why not Brussels also. Russia hasn't meddled before?
Thugs. Does evidence exist which show the extent of organising of protestors by the west. Didn' see much thugish behaviour afterward, palace wasn't looted, no widespread violence for eg. A corrupt leader was kicked out: good. Russia have surely organised things too.
Nor evidence that ethnic-Russians were being attacked by these thugs; so, why did Russia invade? To further their (ruling elite's interests) own aims. Bit like the uSA.
So, really i'm not into specifics. Merely irritated that the tone of 'alternative' blogs and opinions all seem to be reading from the same hymn sheet. In that the USA is the only enemy in town. Of course not, but read some blogs or some posts and you'd think otherwise*. Which in my opinion just helps benefit the few at the expense of the many. From the blog above: "stop the empire's war on russia' and 'russia stands for freedom'!.
Them and Us. West and East. When really it should be: me and people like me down here, and you (few) lot up there.
*Yes, you(steve) said that you're not cheering on russia, but imo the post and others have concentrated on the play from an anti-west perspective. Yet RUSSIA INVADED. No offense, like reading your and everybody else's posts.
But..
Russia did invade Ukraine. Why is this never mentioned.
The vote was taken in a territory occupied by large numbers of men with guns.
Ukraine and people who lived there has a long and bloody history from Russian involvement, and yet so many non-russians voted this way. This and the speed of the referendum (no time to stop and consider things) is enough to question its legitimency.
Ukraine lies between 2 powers and so is manipulated by both the EU/west and Russia. If Ukraine is within Moscow's sphere, why not Brussels also. Russia hasn't meddled before?
Thugs. Does evidence exist which show the extent of organising of protestors by the west. Didn' see much thugish behaviour afterward, palace wasn't looted, no widespread violence for eg. A corrupt leader was kicked out: good. Russia have surely organised things too.
Nor evidence that ethnic-Russians were being attacked by these thugs; so, why did Russia invade? To further their (ruling elite's interests) own aims. Bit like the uSA.
So, really i'm not into specifics. Merely irritated that the tone of 'alternative' blogs and opinions all seem to be reading from the same hymn sheet. In that the USA is the only enemy in town. Of course not, but read some blogs or some posts and you'd think otherwise*. Which in my opinion just helps benefit the few at the expense of the many. From the blog above: "stop the empire's war on russia' and 'russia stands for freedom'!.
Them and Us. West and East. When really it should be: me and people like me down here, and you (few) lot up there.
*Yes, you(steve) said that you're not cheering on russia, but imo the post and others have concentrated on the play from an anti-west perspective. Yet RUSSIA INVADED. No offense, like reading your and everybody else's posts.
- UndercoverElephant
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Crimea is right on the Russian border. It has previously been part of Russia itself.Snail wrote: If Ukraine is within Moscow's sphere, why not Brussels also.
Yep, Putin is a thug. What are we going to do about it?Thugs.
Because it is very much in the Russian national interest that either they control Crimea, or a friendly government controls it. And they could invade and get away with it, so they did.why did Russia invade?
I don't agree. The USA is just the most hypocritical, and until recently was the most powerful.In that the USA is the only enemy in town.
- biffvernon
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That's not actually true, by the way. Putin ordered in a larger contingent than was already present. But, only up to the maximum agreed limit of 25,000. Furthermore, not a single death or injury from fighting between the Russian contingent and Ukrainian forces occurred prior to or during the vote. Indeed, you may be forgiven for not knowing it, given the lack of coverage in Western media, but there is a significant revolt against the Kiev coup all across Ukraine, but particularly on its eastern flank.Snail wrote:...Russia did invade Ukraine. Why is this never mentioned...
Indeed. I think the west lost any claims to moral high ground when 'we' didn't call the reinstatement of Yanukovych as a first priority. It's all a big game really.stevecook172001 wrote:That's not actually true, by the way. Putin ordered in a larger contingent than was already present. But, only up to the maximum agreed limit of 25,000. Furthermore, not a single death or injury from fighting between the Russian contingent and Ukrainian forces occurred prior to or during the vote. Indeed, you may be forgiven for not knowing it, given the lack of coverage in Western media, but there is a significant revolt against the Kiev coup all across Ukraine, but particularly on its eastern flank.Snail wrote:...Russia did invade Ukraine. Why is this never mentioned...
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Yes but they've switched allegiance to the Russian side as have the air force, which is why it is currently grounded.RenewableCandy wrote:Apparently there is (was?) a Ukrainian Fleet based in the Crimea.
Breaking news: 2 reported killed in shooting near Crimea military research centre
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
Agent provocateurs? It strikes me that the last thing Putin and co need right now is to give the USA the excuse to cry foul. Russia's already got what it wants without a single death and with the near unanimous backing of the Crimean people to boot.raspberry-blower wrote:Yes but they've switched allegiance to the Russian side as have the air force, which is why it is currently grounded.RenewableCandy wrote:Apparently there is (was?) a Ukrainian Fleet based in the Crimea.
Breaking news: 2 reported killed in shooting near Crimea military research centre
There are strong cultural and ethnic fault-lines dividing the country broadly into east and west. It will fracture. I think the only thing that would prevent this would be a major reform of the way the country is organised, perhaps on federal lines. But I don't foresee any initiatives in this regard coming from Kiev.
My Dad was born near Lwow (now Lviv). The people in that area have been wary of Russia for a long time. It's natural for them to look west.
I'd be careful of forming a view of the ultra-right as a small, marginal group. Ultra-right sentiments have been well established in that part of the world for decades, and my Dad has told me experiences of anti-semitism from the 1920's when he was at school. Low-level stuff, but a strong undercurrent. (We are not Jewish, but a lot of kids at his school were).
My Dad was born near Lwow (now Lviv). The people in that area have been wary of Russia for a long time. It's natural for them to look west.
I'd be careful of forming a view of the ultra-right as a small, marginal group. Ultra-right sentiments have been well established in that part of the world for decades, and my Dad has told me experiences of anti-semitism from the 1920's when he was at school. Low-level stuff, but a strong undercurrent. (We are not Jewish, but a lot of kids at his school were).
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.