The Arab Spring and Climate Change

For threads primarily discussing Climate Change (particularly in relation to Peak Oil)

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kenneal - lagger
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

“The project to establish the coastal walls is a service project…without economic gain and, thus, you will not find a financier for this project from companies or foreign governments,” Ouda says.
This is a typical economist's statement and sums up the barrenness of economic thinking. There would be a huge economic gain for the small farmers of the delta who would continue to earn a living and for the nation as it saves money on importing replacement food.

If the sea wall project could be carried out using products sourced from within Egypt there is no reason why the Egyptian government couldn't print the money to pay for the work. The main problem would be that they import most of their oil and vast amounts of the stuff would be required to power the construction. That would have to be paid for somehow.

Putting the blame on Western powers who are fueling climate change is a bit of a cop out when a large part of the problem is the Aswan Dam and another large part is the amount of water taken out of the Nile upstream by the Egyptians themselves. The silt problem was pointed out to the Egyptians by many critics of the dam before it was ever built but the demands of technology were heeded first.
Yet some have argued that as Western nations are most responsible for climate change, their governments should foot the bill on behalf of the developing nations most impacted by its consequences.
As the Russians built the dam and are responsible for providing much of the oil and gas that we all now use and are rushing to extend their exploitation of that resource to the Arctic perhaps they have a greater responsibility for the problem.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
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PS_RalphW
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Post by PS_RalphW »

Egypt is still nearly self sufficient in oil, although they are well past peak and declining. Their problems are financial, they subsidize fuel very heavily and used to use oil exports to fund food imports and subsidies. If they cut the subsidies they could afford it, but the people would revolt, again.
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

kenneal - lagger wrote:If the sea wall project could be carried out using products sourced from within Egypt there is no reason why the Egyptian government couldn't print the money to pay for the work. The main problem would be that they import most of their oil and vast amounts of the stuff would be required to power the construction. That would have to be paid for somehow.
Though this is simplistic of me to say, ken's comment highlights how locked into 'oil as a solution' we are.

Fossil fuels are seen as the answer to fossil fuel's problems.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

biffvernon wrote:
emordnilap wrote: it will still not budge anyone into actually doing anything.
It's easy to think that but it's a bit of an exaggeration. There are a lot of people doing rather a lot. Not enough doing enough, but still a lot doing a lot. We just have to keep pushing.
Sadly, this 'lot' is rather few and equates to nothing.

Now, if those few were heads of government...
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

emordnilap wrote:
Now, if those few were heads of government...
I'll be called a naive optimist but 198 heads of state have signed the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. (They just have to agree a few details before December 2015 to sign the next bit at COP 21!)
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

Talking, signing, meeting, junketing, rinse and repeat. :lol: :lol:

I won't call you anything.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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Post by Atman »

Any solution possible is probably too late. Weather patterns are already abnormal. Artic methane readings are setting personal bests. Humans be crazy. They think it's all over...[insert 50gt methane release from the arctic]...it is now[1]. We are cooked. Have a look at the lists on http://energyskeptic.com/ concerning the number of crtical weaknesses in the system. How can they be avoided indefinitely? They surely can't. I've been so sure of this fact of the demise of industrial civilisation happening in my lifetime but the bias of hyperbolic discounting (i think) prevents decisive action.

[1]http://arctic-news.blogspot.co.uk/p/pot ... lease.html
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

This piece in the New York Times is interesting.

It implicitly states that corporations are more powerful than governments (true) and so they're best placed to tackle global environmental crises (doubtful).

Coca-cola, as the world's biggest sugar buyer and the direct cause of some of these crises, may be poised to try some redress.
Coke reflects a growing view among American business leaders and mainstream economists who see global warming as a force that contributes to lower gross domestic products, higher food and commodity costs, broken supply chains and increased financial risk
Too little, too late. The tension between biosphere degradation and shareholder greed may be too great for any company or group of companies to relieve.

TEQs/C&S. Simple.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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