the frack thread

[Ralph]

They always add the provision "if properly regulated" to the fracking is safe argument. What have we been able to "properly regulate" in the past twenty or more years?

More than a million frack jobs without polluting freshwater aquifers? Seems like a reasonable track record.

On that basis we should assume that fracking will not be safe and should be avoided, especially as our rock strata are heavily fissured, unlike US shale rocks.

US shale rocks are highly fractured. Otherwise the shale production dating back into the late 1800's would never have been possible without the hydraulic fracturing so common nowadays.

It could create thousands of jobs in the water treatment industry and the water bottling industry. What good will that be to the UK's economy?

Begging for natural gas from others is a better alternative? US domestic energy production has been quite helpful to the economy of entire states here.

[kenneal - lagger]

They always add the provision "if properly regulated" to the fracking is safe argument. What have we been able to "properly regulate" in the past twenty or more years?

More than a million frack jobs without polluting freshwater aquifers? Seems like a reasonable track record.

This article seems to disagree with your claim:-

In at least four states that have nurtured the nation's energy boom, hundreds of complaints have been made about well-water contamination from oil or gas drilling, and pollution was confirmed in a number of them, according to a review that casts doubt on industry suggestions that such problems rarely happen.

On that basis we should assume that fracking will not be safe and should be avoided, especially as our rock strata are heavily fissured, unlike US shale rocks.

US shale rocks are highly fractured. Otherwise the shale production dating back into the late 1800's would never have been possible without the hydraulic fracturing so common nowadays.

Could you say that in English please? Not at all sure what it means.

I didn't say that UK rocks were fractured, I said that they were fissured.

It could create thousands of jobs in the water treatment industry and the water bottling industry. What good will that be to the UK's economy?

Begging for natural gas from others is a better alternative? US domestic energy production has been quite helpful to the economy of entire states here.

What the point of providing shale gas if we have to use it on the production of drinking water. We can live without shale gas: water is a different question.

This article shows that it could become quite a burden in many other States. This is just another instance of corporatism: the privatisation of profit while the liability goes on the taxpayer.

[biffvernon]

In the UK there are checks on all this: you have to show inspectors, at the top of the year, what you're going to teach. And then at the end of the year there's some kind of check that you'e actually done it. It does seem to work: I know someone who did it.

When we kept a child home to educate otherwise and the Inspector called he said, "Ah, I see you have more children's books than they have in the village school."

(What's this got to do with fracking?)

[biffvernon]

Back on topic, today's filming at Barton Moss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Spk6X0Hlqk

[emordnilap]

"In the British model of policing, police officers are citizens in uniform. They exercise their powers to police their fellow citizens with the implicit consent of their fellow citizens. Policing by consent is the phrase used to describe this. It denotes that the legitimacy of policing in the eyes of the public is based upon a general consensus of support that follows from transparency about their powers, demonstrating integrity in exercising those powers and their accountability for doing so."

Don't believe everything you read. In fairness, it does say 'police their fellow citizens', not 'protect'.

[Ralph]

They always add the provision "if properly regulated" to the fracking is safe argument. What have we been able to "properly regulate" in the past twenty or more years?

More than a million frack jobs without polluting freshwater aquifers? Seems like a reasonable track record.

This article seems to disagree with your claim:-

In at least four states that have nurtured the nation's energy boom, hundreds of complaints have been made about well-water contamination from oil or gas drilling, and pollution was confirmed in a number of them, according to a review that casts doubt on industry suggestions that such problems rarely happen.

Did you read the article? Do you understand the difference between pollution, and a complaint of pollution? Do you understand the term, "deep pockets" and the litigious nature of American society demanded by the ambulance (frac) chasers? Do you understand why Gasland and the impression it gave of what a frack does to a homes drinking water supply have nothing in common? Or do the facts of how this stuff works not need to get involved in a good story to fire up the believers?

I didn't say that UK rocks were fractured, I said that they were fissured.

You did. Do you assign some heavy significance to the difference between natural fracture densities and "fissures" that, depending on what you think you meant by that statement…look just like those natural fractures?

The Burning Springs anticline in the Ohio Valley, for example, contains both. And has been producing oil and gas from shales for more than a century. Do you presume that for some reason the fissures should have precluded the production from the fractures, when the two are actually in contact with each other, and the fissures (and fractures) can actually be found in outcrop on the West Virginia side of the Ohio river?

What the point of providing shale gas if we have to use it on the production of drinking water. We can live without shale gas: water is a different question.

You live on an island, do you not? And your fear is….drinking water? Have the Brits forgotten how to MAKE drinking water, should it stop falling from the sky?

[biffvernon]

Kevin Anderson puts boot into Total Oil’s announcement of their investment in UK shale gas and in the Government’s passionate support for the shale gas industry:

http://kevinanderson.info/blog/uk-inter ... -industry/

[emordnilap]

Good summary.

UK international commitments on climate change are incompatible with the development of a national shale gas industry

Duh.

[emordnilap]

There is nothing more patronising than a politician speaking on a subject he knows nothing about.

David Cameron's irrationality

[Tarrel]

There is nothing more patronising than a politician speaking on a subject he knows nothing about.

David Cameron's irrationality

And yet, just one week ago..

Cameron 'suspects' floods linked to climate change

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25656426

[Murf]

Did you read the article? Do you understand the difference between pollution, and a complaint of pollution? Do you understand the term, "deep pockets" and the litigious nature of American society demanded by the ambulance (frac) chasers? Do you understand why Gasland and the impression it gave of what a frack does to a homes drinking water supply have nothing in common? Or do the facts of how this stuff works not need to get involved in a good story to fire up the believers?

"The McMickens were one of three families that eventually reached a $1.6 million settlement with a drilling company."

Are you suggesting that the drilling company gave them $1.6 million even though they were not culpable in any way? In essence they thought that a bunch of ambulance chasers could beat them in court even without any evidence of wrongdoing on their part, so they shelled out $1.6 million to avoid that?

You live on an island, do you not? And your fear is….drinking water? Have the Brits forgotten how to MAKE drinking water, should it stop falling from the sky?

So instead of the tried and true method of getting our fresh water from reservoirs, we should start a massive and expensive scheme of setting up desalination plants to get our water from the sea, in preparation for our fresh water supplies to be ruined by fracking?

[Tarrel]

So instead of the tried and true method of getting our fresh water from reservoirs, we should start a massive and expensive scheme of setting up desalination plants to get our water from the sea, in preparation for our fresh water supplies to be ruined by fracking?

We might as well. We'll have plenty of shale gas to power the desalination plants!

[vtsnowedin]

[You live on an island, do you not? And your fear is….drinking water? Have the Brits forgotten how to MAKE drinking water, should it stop falling from the sky?

Make water? sure, piece of cake isn't it. Now if we take some reasonably pure hydrogen and burn it will combine with some of the oxygen in the air and Walla!! H-2O= Water. So all we need is X trillion cubic feet of hydrogen and an engine to burn it in (might as well get some work out of the heat created by the reaction) and problem solved. Checking Craigslist for X trillion cubic feet of hydrogen for sale cheap.

[Ralph]

You live on an island, do you not? And your fear is….drinking water? Have the Brits forgotten how to MAKE drinking water, should it stop falling from the sky?

So instead of the tried and true method of getting our fresh water from reservoirs, we should start a massive and expensive scheme of setting up desalination plants to get our water from the sea, in preparation for our fresh water supplies to be ruined by fracking?

No. You should make whatever choices you wish as a society, and a people. If you are afraid of responsible resource development, then you should plan for the alternative, whatever that might be.

Import natural gas from folks who might not like you, and will use those funds to kill folks (Americans know this one well). Force conservation, don't worry about random shortages late at night on cold nights in the old folks homes, forget about building an economic advantage in manufacturing among businesses who need reliable natural gas supplies, when the wind stops blowing don't fire up the natural gas fired turbines, just shut off the electricity to whomever you'd like.

But what you don't get to do is say that the consequences of your decisions are someone else's fault. Sitting on a pile of CH4 molecules and refusing to use them is a choice, and as with all choices, there are consequences. Good luck with yours.

[Murf]

No. You should make whatever choices you wish as a society, and a people. If you are afraid of responsible resource development, then you should plan for the alternative, whatever that might be.

Import natural gas from folks who might not like you, and will use those funds to kill folks (Americans know this one well). Force conservation, don't worry about random shortages late at night on cold nights in the old folks homes, forget about building an economic advantage in manufacturing among businesses who need reliable natural gas supplies, when the wind stops blowing don't fire up the natural gas fired turbines, just shut off the electricity to whomever you'd like.

But what you don't get to do is say that the consequences of your decisions are someone else's fault. Sitting on a pile of CH4 molecules and refusing to use them is a choice, and as with all choices, there are consequences. Good luck with yours.

For me the issue isn't with using natural gas (although I believe alternatives to fossil fuels will need to be found), it's the method of extracting shale gas which I don't see as being responsible resource development. Especially in a country as densely populated as Britain.

There are plenty of alternatives to wind and gas for generating electricity. Maybe that means more coal, more solar, more hydroelectric and tidal. Maybe even biogas generation.

I feel the choice of developing alternative fuels, in the process creating thriving technology industry in what must be a growth sector as a better, more progressive, more responsible choice than the consequences of fracking to keep the fossil fuel party slowly rolling for a few more years.

That would of course require a large number of immensely rich, vested interests to change their business models and develop a new skill set. So thank you for wishing us luck with it!