the frack thread

[Murf]

The protestors of course say its nothing to do with them, its a plot by the police to discredit...

I have found from personal experience that the police are capable of lying. And then running a system to cover up the lies.

I have found from personal experience that those suspected of having committed a crime are often convicted by a jury of their peers for having done it. Funny how that works.

Tell that to the people in Guantanamo Bay. Or the families of the victims of Hillsborough. Or Rodney King.

It's not as simple as: arrested -> trial by jury -> fair outcome.

[RenewableCandy]

Not being a human can have distinct drawbacks when attempting to discuss ethical issues. "ralph" can't do the Rawls thing and ask itself "what if that were me?" because it has no proper self to ask.

[Ralph]

Not being a human can have distinct drawbacks when attempting to discuss ethical issues. "ralph" can't do the Rawls thing and ask itself "what if that were me?" because it has no proper self to ask.

My wife would disagree with you.

[Ralph]

I have found from personal experience that those suspected of having committed a crime are often convicted by a jury of their peers for having done it. Funny how that works.

Tell that to the people in Guantanamo Bay. Or the families of the victims of Hillsborough. Or Rodney King.

I recommend:

A) not getting caught after helping folks with the express purpose of killing americans for fun, Guantanamo exists for just such folks.
B) not confusing bad crowd management and the resulting consequence with police negligence rather than police not being able to predict random events in the future any better than a stock broker can tomorrow's market.
C) not drunk driving while fleeing the police at speeds capable of killing everyone you might come in contact with.

There are no innocents in your examples. Choose better, certainly there are cases where the rights of innocents have been trampled, but none of your examples are them.

Find a nun, going to church, blown up by a Palestinian because buses full of nuns are easier targets than actually tackling the IDF. That would be a decent example of how folks don't care a whit about guilt before inflicting harm for the pleasure of it.

[RenewableCandy]

I have found from personal experience that those suspected of having committed a crime are often convicted by a jury of their peers for having done it. Funny how that works.

Tell that to the people in Guantanamo Bay. Or the families of the victims of Hillsborough. Or Rodney King.

I recommend:

A) not getting caught after helping folks with the express purpose of killing americans for fun, Guantanamo exists for just such folks.
B) not confusing bad crowd management and the resulting consequence with police negligence rather than police not being able to predict random events in the future any better than a stock broker can tomorrow's market.
C) not drunk driving while fleeing the police at speeds capable of killing everyone you might come in contact with.

There are no innocents in your examples.

Plenty of "Gitmo guests" who haven't had trials (yet). In law, one is innocent until proven guilty. Shows how much you know, doesn't it?

[Ralph]

Tell that to the people in Guantanamo Bay. Or the families of the victims of Hillsborough. Or Rodney King.

I recommend:

A) not getting caught after helping folks with the express purpose of killing americans for fun, Guantanamo exists for just such folks.
B) not confusing bad crowd management and the resulting consequence with police negligence rather than police not being able to predict random events in the future any better than a stock broker can tomorrow's market.
C) not drunk driving while fleeing the police at speeds capable of killing everyone you might come in contact with.

There are no innocents in your examples.

Plenty of "Gitmo guests" who haven't had trials (yet). In law, one is innocent until proven guilty. Shows how much you know, doesn't it?

We haven't been discussing much about "law". We've been discussing the application of power in its various forms by TPTB.

The police and "law" aren't there to serve and protect anyone. They are there to clean up the mess afterwards, and hopefully chase down those who did wrong to discourage the next folks from doing same.

You want the law to protect you, the first thing you learn is what the law allows you to do to protect yourself. I prefer the 45ACP myself, and have zero intention of waiting for the "law" to reveal itself and help me out when anything resembling protesters with flare guns, Rodney King, or general skullduggery is afoot. Common sense, a fine appreciation of the art of retreat, and barring that the fine wisdom of those who have carried one of Americas greatest inventions for more than a century…"while a 9mm might expand, a 45 will never shrink".

[RenewableCandy]

And your point is?

[Murf]

I recommend:

A) not getting caught after helping folks with the express purpose of killing americans for fun, Guantanamo exists for just such folks.
B) not confusing bad crowd management and the resulting consequence with police negligence rather than police not being able to predict random events in the future any better than a stock broker can tomorrow's market.
C) not drunk driving while fleeing the police at speeds capable of killing everyone you might come in contact with.

There are no innocents in your examples.

Well you could argue the semantics of "innocent" I suppose, but:

a) As RenewableCandy points out, do people deserve to be locked up and tortured without trial or due process? Were these terrorists "killing americans for fun", or were they making a political stand, however reprehensible? Are the people in Guantanamo Bay all proven to have aided these terrorists too?

b) You obviously know nothing of what happened that day or the resulting 22 year long cover up by the police. Fair enough if you're from the US, but it was a perfect example of what

I have found from personal experience that the police are capable of lying. And then running a system to cover up the lies.

c) I'm not saying he's innocent, but did he deserve to be knocked to the ground and beaten to within an inch of his life by a load of big guys with long heavy sticks? That doesn't sound to me like the land of the free or the home of the brave.

Choose better, certainly there are cases where the rights of innocents have been trampled, but none of your examples are them.

Well at least you are begrudgingly kind of agreeing with me! Certainly in the case of Hillsborough I would disagree very strongly and assert that my example does show innocents being unlawfully killed and the rights of their families trampled.

Find a nun, going to church, blown up by a Palestinian because buses full of nuns are easier targets than actually tackling the IDF. That would be a decent example of how folks don't care a whit about guilt before inflicting harm for the pleasure of it.

What about civilian men, women and children being arbritrarily blown to pieces in the Middle East and beyond by Western missiles and US drones because there is oil, lithium, poppies or pipeline space in or on the ground beneath them?

Plenty of "Gitmo guests" who haven't had trials (yet). In law, one is innocent until proven guilty. Shows how much you know, doesn't it?

We haven't been discussing much about "law". We've been discussing the application of power in its various forms by TPTB.

What is law if not the application of power by TPTB? What is circumventing that law to imprison people without charge for as long as you like and using torture on them? Sounds like the application of power to me.

The police and "law" aren't there to serve and protect anyone. They are there to clean up the mess afterwards, and hopefully chase down those who did wrong to discourage the next folks from doing same.

You want the law to protect you, the first thing you learn is what the law allows you to do to protect yourself. I prefer the 45ACP myself, and have zero intention of waiting for the "law" to reveal itself and help me out when anything resembling protesters with flare guns, Rodney King, or general skullduggery is afoot. Common sense, a fine appreciation of the art of retreat, and barring that the fine wisdom of those who have carried one of Americas greatest inventions for more than a century…"while a 9mm might expand, a 45 will never shrink".

Wowzer!

Yes, that's the way to conduct a civilised society. The general public making lethal judgements on each other out on the streets with powerful weapons.

"Look out Ned, it's coming right for us!"

[PS_RalphW]

I have spent time in remote, rural India. I have counted among my friends people from all the major religions and none, I nearly married a Jain. I known very rich people and very poor (by world standards, not UK/US). I have been without income and found myself all but homeless and penniless, I have been on the wrong end of prejudice, bureaucratic bungling and I have made plenty of mistakes. I know how fallible I and every one of us can be, but the one thing I have found is that 99% of the time, 99% of people just want to get on with life and with the people they meet.

Ralph shows all the signs of being in the 1%.

[eatyourveg]

I understand what you are saying RalphW, and not having been here for a while I have amused myself by reading some of faux Ralph's witterings. He seems remarkably like RGR - forever willing to argue that black is white and vice versa.

There is always one, and Ralph, it's you. That isn't a compliment.

[emordnilap]

RGR is a chatbot.

[emordnilap]

Fracking causes birth weight issues.

proximity to fracking increased the likelihood of low birth weight by more than half, from about 5.6 percent to more than 9 percent

Source

[Ralph]

The police and "law" aren't there to serve and protect anyone. They are there to clean up the mess afterwards, and hopefully chase down those who did wrong to discourage the next folks from doing same.

Wowzer!

Yes, that's the way to conduct a civilised society.

Been working pretty well ever since we kicked out the remnants of those who couldn't adapt.

The general public making lethal judgements on each other out on the streets with powerful weapons.

Been carrying concealed on and off for 40 years now, no lethal involved anywhere along the line. Just because someone carries a firearm doesn't mean they expect to use it every other afternoon, you carry for the same reason you carry a pocketknife or cell phone. Tools come in handy on occasion.

[RenewableCandy]

The police and "law" aren't there to serve and protect anyone. They are there to clean up the mess afterwards, and hopefully chase down those who did wrong to discourage the next folks from doing same.

Wowzer!

Yes, that's the way to conduct a civilised society.

Been working pretty well

Incorrect.

[3rdRock]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25695813

French oil giant Total to invest in UK shale gas

If Britain can extract 10% of its estimated gas reserves, it could supply the entire country for 50 years, our correspondent said.

In August, Prime Minister David Cameron said the whole country should support fracking, insisting it is safe if properly regulated and could create thousands of jobs and reduce energy bills.