EU immigration row / time to get out

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 22 Dec 2013, 21:29

My favourite ever piece of election agitprop came through our door when we were living in Glasgow. It said:

VOTE ABDUL KHAN
Scottish Nationalist

I kid you not

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 22 Dec 2013, 21:48

UndercoverElephant wrote: I am, for example, very worried about Islam. But on the whole I think the diversity of races and cultures in the UK is a good thing.

From the interview with Richard Dawkins in the current, Christmas bumper issue of New Scientist:

I think my love of truth and honesty forces me to notice that the liberal intelligentsia of Western countries is betraying itself where Islam is concerned. It's stymied by the conflict between being against misogyny and discrimination against women on the one hand, and on the other by the terror of being thought racist – driven by misunderstanding Islam as though it were a race. So people who would normally speak out against the maltreatment of women don't do it. I do fret about what I see as a betrayal by my own people, the nice liberals.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 22 Dec 2013, 22:12

Rosen Plevneliev seems to have made a worthwhile contribution to the debate today with his criticism of David Cameron:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013 ... n-migrants

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/d ... plevneliev

Vince Cable is also criticising David Cameron:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013 ... -coalition

and backing up Nick Clegg's criticism of David Cameron:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013 ... ation-stop

And here Tony Helm explains how the Tory right turned against EU enlargement:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/d ... t-bulgaria

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 22 Dec 2013, 22:19

Back to the Interview that Richard Dawkins gave Rowan Hooper for the New Scientist, here's a part that has some parallels with things that have happened in this thread.

Rowan Hooper: There's a gulf between the real you and the caricature Richard Dawkins. How has that come about?

Richard Dawkins: I have two theories which are not mutually exclusive. One is the religion business. People really, really hate their religion being criticised. It's as though you've said they had an ugly face, they seem to identify personally with it. There is a historical attitude that religion is off limits to criticism.

Also, some people find clarity threatening. They like muddle, confusion, obscurity. So when somebody does no more than speak clearly it sounds threatening.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 22 Dec 2013, 22:50

AndySir wrote:Did you actually read it, UE? I should have probably left out the bit about the Holocaust denial

Yes, you probably should.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 22 Dec 2013, 22:51

biffvernon wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote: I am, for example, very worried about Islam. But on the whole I think the diversity of races and cultures in the UK is a good thing.
From the interview with Richard Dawkins in the current, Christmas bumper issue of New Scientist:

I think my love of truth and honesty forces me to notice that the liberal intelligentsia of Western countries is betraying itself where Islam is concerned. It's stymied by the conflict between being against misogyny and discrimination against women on the one hand, and on the other by the terror of being thought racist – driven by misunderstanding Islam as though it were a race. So people who would normally speak out against the maltreatment of women don't do it. I do fret about what I see as a betrayal by my own people, the nice liberals.

Indeed. On this issue I still agree with RD.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 23 Dec 2013, 03:53

AndySir wrote:You'd probably like this guy UE - he campaigns in Glasgow for the Scottish Elections.

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/ ... festo.html

He used to be in UKIP but was expelled for Holocaust denial (or questioning the extent/history of etc.)

What an utter f***ing tosser you are. You are quite aware that UE has allowed himself to get intemperate due to being provoked by BiffVernon. He has acknowledged that and whilst not apologetic for being so angry, has acknowledged that expressing it in that manner is pointless (I happen to disagree with him to some extent. Sometimes, showing others just how angry you are and why is precisely necessary). At which point, you have wasted no time whatsoever in taking the opportunity to have a snide little go at a wind-up by insinuating racism yet again. Presumably, in the hope of provoking him to become intemperate once again. Which makes you an underhand, slimy, disingenuous little trolling turd. But, then, I already knew that full-well already.

You're a f***ing w*nker mister and that is plain to see by one and all and if it gets me sanctioned to be so blunt, I could not give a shit. A spade is a spade.

AndySir · Post by **AndySir** » 23 Dec 2013, 06:54

stevecook172001 wrote:
AndySir wrote:You'd probably like this guy UE - he campaigns in Glasgow for the Scottish Elections.

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/ ... festo.html

He used to be in UKIP but was expelled for Holocaust denial (or questioning the extent/history of etc.)
What an utter ******* tosser you are. You are quite aware that UE has allowed himself to get intemperate due to being provoked by BiffVernon. He has acknowledged that and whilst not apologetic for being so angry, has acknowledged that expressing it in that manner is pointless (I happen to disagree with him to some extent. Sometimes, showing others just how angry you are and why is precisely necessary). At which point, you have wasted no time whatsoever in taking the opportunity to have a snide little go at a wind-up by insinuating racism yet again. Presumably, in the hope of provoking him to become intemperate once again. Which makes you an underhand, slimy, disingenuous little trolling turd. But, then, I already knew that full-well already.

You're a ******* w*nker mister and that is plain to see by one and all and if it gets me sanctioned to be so blunt, I could not give a shit. A spade is a spade.

I plead innocence on this score. I'm familiar with the Independent Green Voice guy and genuinely wanted UE's comments. Not one of my snide digs, although I make no apologies for them (I'd say my implications would be more welcome in the Oxford debating hall than the majority of your posts and language). I simply wanted to forewarn him about his history.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 23 Dec 2013, 07:15

stevecook172001 wrote:What an utter ******* tosser you are. You are quite aware that UE has allowed himself to get intemperate due to being provoked by BiffVernon. He has acknowledged that and whilst not apologetic for being so angry, has acknowledged that expressing it in that manner is pointless (I happen to disagree with him to some extent. Sometimes, showing others just how angry you are and why is precisely necessary). At which point, you have wasted no time whatsoever in taking the opportunity to have a snide little go at a wind-up by insinuating racism yet again. Presumably, in the hope of provoking him to become intemperate once again. Which makes you an underhand, slimy, disingenuous little trolling turd. But, then, I already knew that full-well already.

You're a ******* w*nker mister and that is plain to see by one and all and if it gets me sanctioned to be so blunt, I could not give a shit. A spade is a spade.

Never has so much rubbish been talked by so few for so long.

I don't know what substances you are consuming, but they are apparently making you very agressive. If that's your normal state, maybe you should take some appropriate substance for effective treatment.

In which case I wish you a speedy recovery.

As a therapy you could try top lighting your fire, then sit and be amazed by the magic of heat transfer by radiation. Very relaxing.

PS Since when is mentioning Scotland, Glasgow, UKIP or the holocaust insinuating racism?

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 23 Dec 2013, 08:09

I missed the Andrew Marr show yesterday but by the wonders of the BBC i-Player it is available here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... 2_12_2013/

The Vince Cable bit starts after 32 minutes, 35 minutes in for the bit on immigration.

Here's the Evening Standard: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/immig ... 20929.html

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 23 Dec 2013, 08:30

Business Secretary Vince Cable told the Andrew Marr Show this morning that a cap on European Union migrants is "not going to happen" and accused the Tories of being in a "panic" over immigration.

Yes, and this is the same Vince Cable who said the shares in Royal Mail weren't going to go to corporates, bankers and spivs. Don't believe a word he says, he's a politician.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 23 Dec 2013, 11:29

AndySir wrote:
stevecook172001 wrote:
AndySir wrote:You'd probably like this guy UE - he campaigns in Glasgow for the Scottish Elections.

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/ ... festo.html

He used to be in UKIP but was expelled for Holocaust denial (or questioning the extent/history of etc.)
What an utter ******* tosser you are. You are quite aware that UE has allowed himself to get intemperate due to being provoked by BiffVernon. He has acknowledged that and whilst not apologetic for being so angry, has acknowledged that expressing it in that manner is pointless (I happen to disagree with him to some extent. Sometimes, showing others just how angry you are and why is precisely necessary). At which point, you have wasted no time whatsoever in taking the opportunity to have a snide little go at a wind-up by insinuating racism yet again. Presumably, in the hope of provoking him to become intemperate once again. Which makes you an underhand, slimy, disingenuous little trolling turd. But, then, I already knew that full-well already.

You're a ******* w*nker mister and that is plain to see by one and all and if it gets me sanctioned to be so blunt, I could not give a shit. A spade is a spade.
I plead innocence on this score. I'm familiar with the Independent Green Voice guy and genuinely wanted UE's comments.

No you didn't. You posted what you did for the sole purpose of attempting to irritate me with a below-the-belt, snide little dig. There was no contribution to the debate that is happening in the thread, and even if I'd offered my comments on this person's other policies, it still wouldn't have contributed anything to the thread. You are a disruptive troll who continually breaks the rules of decent debate.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 23 Dec 2013, 11:33

woodburner wrote:
Business Secretary Vince Cable told the Andrew Marr Show this morning that a cap on European Union migrants is "not going to happen" and accused the Tories of being in a "panic" over immigration.
Yes, and this is the same Vince Cable who said the shares in Royal Mail weren't going to go to corporates, bankers and spivs. Don't believe a word he says, he's a politician.

Indeed. His case demonstrates that even the most straight-talking and apparently-honest opposition politician becomes an outright liar when in power. Him and Nick Clegg between them have ensured that I will never vote libdem again.

AndySir · Post by **AndySir** » 23 Dec 2013, 11:49

UndercoverElephant wrote: You are a disruptive troll who continually breaks the rules of decent debate.

I think you might want to lay off the swearing, name calling and flouncing before you can reasonably criticise other people's unparliamentary behaviour.

But fine, comments on a political party who's primary policy is exactly that proposed in the OP of this thread for what appears to be exactly the same justifications would contribute nothing. We should be lending our time and our voices to more important issues, like calling Biff a hypocrite.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 23 Dec 2013, 12:04

At last

you are beginning to understand the concept of decent debate. Better late than never