EU immigration row / time to get out

[woodburner]

You did not say that, you said as a rule you like non-white, non-British people. I inferred you meant a preference. Did you mean something else?

[clv101]

I'm not sure this is a useful measure in the discussion about migration. The UK has a long history of net food import, (remember the Corn Laws?), and again it's a system boundary thing. London is an importer, Lincolnshire an exporter. South East England an importer, Europe an exporter. Bringing the Ukraine into the EU would massively increase the EU's net food export status.

This is a very good point.

[AndySir]

I still don't see what your differences are with Griffin et al. After all he is both nationalist and socialist as well.

"Griffin et al" (including J2M) don't like non-white, non-British people. They have been around for a long time and their primary reason for not wanting people to come here is that they prefer the company of people of their own race and their own culture, and they think this is a natural state of affairs. They are unrepentant xenophobes and racists. This is their rule, and the exception is certain others they accept (like J2M liking the Nazis even though they weren't British).

For me this is the other way around. As a rule, I like non-white, non-British people. There are exceptions - I am, for example, very worried about Islam. But on the whole I think the diversity of races and cultures in the UK is a good thing. The only bad thing is the total of number of people.

I see. So basically you want the same things but your motivations are so much purer.

[woodburner]

I'm not sure this is a useful measure in the discussion about migration. The UK has a long history of net food import, (remember the Corn Laws?), and again it's a system boundary thing. London is an importer, Lincolnshire an exporter. South East England an importer, Europe an exporter. Bringing the Ukraine into the EU would massively increase the EU's net food export status.

This is a very good point.

In the days of the Corn Laws, the UK was a significant manufacturing exporter. No longer the case .

I think Russia might be a bit miffed as the Ukraine is the source of a large input to their food supply.

[UndercoverElephant]

You did not say that, you said as a rule you like non-white, non-British people. I inferred you meant a preference. Did you mean something else?

I meant what I said, not what you inferred me to say. I meant that as a rule, I like non-white and non-British people, in contrast to the J2M's and Nick Griffin's of this world, who don't.

Got anything else "clever" to say?

[UndercoverElephant]

I still don't see what your differences are with Griffin et al. After all he is both nationalist and socialist as well.

"Griffin et al" (including J2M) don't like non-white, non-British people. They have been around for a long time and their primary reason for not wanting people to come here is that they prefer the company of people of their own race and their own culture, and they think this is a natural state of affairs. They are unrepentant xenophobes and racists. This is their rule, and the exception is certain others they accept (like J2M liking the Nazis even though they weren't British).

For me this is the other way around. As a rule, I like non-white, non-British people. There are exceptions - I am, for example, very worried about Islam. But on the whole I think the diversity of races and cultures in the UK is a good thing. The only bad thing is the total of number of people.

I see. So basically you want the same things but your motivations are so much purer.

I do want some of the same things but my motivations are less "nasty", yes. I am not ashamed of the fact that I happen to agree with some of the same policies as the BNP, albeit for different reasons. It would be rather odd if I disagreed with Nick Griffin and J2M about absolutely everything.

[AndySir]

If we accept that the difference between isolationism and xenophobia is one of motivation, then why then are you and Steve so annoyed with the wooly liberals driving people to the BNP? They seem to want the same things you want: preservation of British culture (I know you're keen on that from that lengthy 'unacceptable culture' thread), isolationist foreign policy, forced re-distribution of wealth, and a tendency to distrust democracy and favour authoritarianism.

So why sweat and shout at Biff and fling your feces out the window if it's the mens rea of BNP voters that you have the problem with. Biff is unlikely to change somebody's motivation, and the policies are clearly not unacceptable to you.

[UndercoverElephant]

If we accept that the difference between isolationism and xenophobia is one of motivation, then why then are you and Steve so annoyed with the wooly liberals driving people to the BNP? They seem to want the same things you want: preservation of British culture (I know you're keen on that from that lengthy 'unacceptable culture' thread)...

I have no idea what you are talking about. There are certain cultural traits (e.g. radical Islam) that I want kept under control in the UK, but I have never said I that I am "keen on the preservation of British culture."

, isolationist foreign policy,

You are putting words into my mouth, yet again. Can you try, just once, to stick to what I actually say?

forced re-distribution of wealth,

This I do agree with.

and a tendency to distrust democracy and favour authoritarianism.

I haven't said that either. I have pointed out that in certain cases democracy can't deliver the goods. I do not, in general, "favour authoritarianism."

So why sweat and shout at Biff and fling your feces out the window if it's the mens rea of BNP voters that you have the problem with. Biff is unlikely to change somebody's motivation, and the policies are clearly not unacceptable to you.

I shout at Biff because I'm sick of the disingenuous claims, the holier-than-thou moral tone based on a total lack of realism, the hypocrisy and the callous disregard for poor people in the UK. I am pointing out to him that his actions are driving people towards the BNP for support in the vague hope that he might actually think about it and change his strategy. I'm hoping he'll actually realise what his woolly liberal views look like to people in the UK who are on the sharp end of the reality he's advocating, and that it will finally dawn on him that selling the poor in his own country down the river will result in them turning to people like the BNP and UKIP for support. The probability he will wake up to this reality is small, but I can try.

I do not want the far right to increase their power in western Europe. I would far prefer the woolly liberals would wake up and smell the roses. I don't want to have to tell people on the left of politics that immigration is a problem. They should already know. The mismatch between left-leaning "ordinary people" and left-leaning woolly liberals and academic-background politicians could not have been made clearer than the "Duffygate" incident that cost Gordon Brown all hope of winning the last election. It wasn't his ineptness at leaving the microphone on or his tendency to blame everybody else for his own mistakes - no, the reason he lost the election that day was that it became very clear to his own core voters that he was totally out of touch with their real concerns. Gillian Duffy is not a "bigotted woman who isn't one of us". She was a bog-standard grass-roots labour voter who was very worried about the effect of immigration on her own life.

[AndySir]

, isolationist foreign policy,

You are putting words into my mouth, yet again. Can you try, just once, to stick to what I actually say?

The entire point of the thread is that you're arguing that we should unilaterally withdraw from the EU. It's called 'time to get out', FFS! There still doesn't appear to be any substantial difference between your views and those of the far right. Remember the far right tend to be far right in terms of social policy (authoritarianism) but economically they are the far left.

[UndercoverElephant]

, isolationist foreign policy,

You are putting words into my mouth, yet again. Can you try, just once, to stick to what I actually say?

The entire point of the thread is that you're arguing that we should unilaterally withdraw from the EU. It's called 'time to get out', FFS! There still doesn't appear to be any substantial difference between your views and those of the far right. Remember the far right tend to be far right in terms of social policy (authoritarianism) but economically they are the far left.

J2M is not economically on the far left.

Perhaps it is not helpful to try to pin people's views on the historical left/right scale. I'm on the far green of politics anyway, and this does tend to mess up any simplistic notions of the traditional left/right.

And I am not on the far right in terms of social policy anyway. I am just opposed to more immigration to the UK, and frustrated with the EU because of its ineffectiveness and the fact it has become a gravy train. I also believe the eurozone is still fatally flawed - that the single currency is causing more problems that it solves.

[woodburner]

I shout at Biff because I'm sick of the disingenuous claims, the holier-than-thou moral tone ......................

Can you not see this is how you appear to be? You have your view, Biff has his. One of you may be right, one of you may be wrong, you both may be right, or you both may be wrong. Either way it's not worth getting wound up over, all that does is to cloud your judgement.

[UndercoverElephant]

I shout at Biff because I'm sick of the disingenuous claims, the holier-than-thou moral tone ......................

Can you not see this is how you appear to be? You have your view, Biff has his. One of you may be right, one of you may be wrong, you both may be right, or you both may be wrong. Either way it's not worth getting wound up over, all that does is to cloud your judgement.

You're right that I should not allow his behaviour to wind me up so much.

[AndySir]

You'd probably like this guy UE - he campaigns in Glasgow for the Scottish Elections.

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/ ... festo.html

He used to be in UKIP but was expelled for Holocaust denial (or questioning the extent/history of etc.)

[UndercoverElephant]

You'd probably like this guy UE - he campaigns in Glasgow for the Scottish Elections.

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/ ... festo.html

He used to be in UKIP but was expelled for Holocaust denial (or questioning the extent/history of etc.)

Oh dear. More "below the belt" debating tactics from AndySir. What a surprise!

Your post is not worthy of a substantive reply. The same goes for about three quarters of the posts you make on this board.

A bit of advice: if you want to stop looking like a prick, try asking yourself a question before each post. The question is "am I trying to score cheap points here?"

[AndySir]

Did you actually read it, UE? I should have probably left out the bit about the Holocaust denial, but I didn't want it to seem as though I was setting up an ambush.

ETA: You think as much as 25% of my posts have content? I do think before I post, only sometimes I think I want to make a snarky comment.