EU immigration row / time to get out

[UndercoverElephant]

you dodge the question and claim that the UK is unlikely to be a desirable destination so it probably won't be a problem.

Where did I claim that? On the contrary, I highlighted the importance of addressing the push and pull factors that make the UK desirable. I do not want the UK's population to grow, as I have said many times before.

Why do you misrepresent what I say and then criticize me for holding a position which is far from the position that I actually hold?

It is becoming increasingly obvious that there is no point in debating you, or even trying to understand what "position you actually hold", because your beliefs are an inconsistent, incoherent jumble. Your belief system apparently consists of free-standing maxims or absolutes such as "there must be no immigration controls into the UK, because that would be right wing intolerance and I'm a nice liberal" and some science. The rest you are just making up as you go along, with no regard to whether the whole things fits together as a consistent, coherent, comprehensible set of beliefs, and little or no regard to the difference between reality as it actually is and some half-thought-out utopian ideal that is never going to be. Trying to debate you critically and rationally is like trying to nail jelly to a wall, and I cannot be bothered to do so any longer.

All I can say to you is this: if you want people to take seriously your ideas about big policies such as the implementation of a law against ecocide, then you need to do some serious work on thinking about how this fits into the rest of what you believe, because as soon as anybody starts asking you searching questions, all they will find at the moment is a vacuous load of old tripe.

[biffvernon]

Still no answer to my question 'Where did I claim that?' in my response to you assertion that I 'claim that the UK is unlikely to be a desirable destination so it probably won't be a problem.'
And still not a single example to back up your allegation that I lied.

I don't think 'belief' is a useful concept in these sort of discussion. At best it might be restricted to my 'belief' that maximising individual freedom is a good thing. That's based on my support for a fundamental ethic, best summed up in the Wiccan Rede, 'An it harms none, do as ye will'.

So my starting point with regard to migration is that there should be freedom of movement. We already have that within nations (it was not always so) and between some nations, such as those within the Schengen Agreement. I would like such freedoms to be universal since it accords with the Wiccan Rede.

Some will raise the objection 'immigration to my part of the world may harm me'. And then we are into the business of weighing up what minimises harm, one person's freedom may impinge on another person's freedom. That's where it gets complicated.

Some people (including me) would judge that substantial net immigration to the UK is not desirable, but rather than pull up the drawbridge, I favour an approach that reduces the push and pull factors that cause the net immigration. This is more in accord with the Wiccan Rede.

Of course, UE, if you really think there is no point in debating with me, I quite understand if you don't reply to my posts. Please don't feel obliged.

[clv101]

If you want to show some good will - that you're actually willing to try to be a bit more honest and stop being disingenuous - a good place to start would be to answer Ken's question which you dodged like politician. It was a perfectly straightforward question: "At what point, in terms of population density, should we say that enough is enough and no more people should come to the UK? At about the same density as Hong Kong? Or a greater density? What density?" Your response to this was "I don't know how to reply to that question. I think it is the wrong question, because it assumes the UK is going to be a place people want to come to." Even by your low standards, this is a pile of stinking bullshit. There's nothing "wrong" about the question, and you know damned well that many other parts of the world are going down the toilet before the UK does and that many millions more people would very much like to come here. The real reason you dodged answering in the way you did was simply to avoid having to give an honest answer to an honest question, because that honest answer would force you to back down on certain other things you like say.

So let's see if you can do it. I expect you to simply ignore this post and hope people won't notice.

No, having carefully reconsidered my earlier answer, I'd repeat it now as it was my best answer: "I don't know how to reply to that question. I think it is the wrong question, because it assumes the UK is going to be a place people want to come to."

Not good enough. That answer is pathetic, and shows you to be a pathetic, dishonest individual. **** off.

This is very unfair UE. biffvernon stated quite clearly, in the very line after the one you quoted that he'd prefer a lower population density.

As I have often said, I would prefer it if Britain has a lower density of population than it has now, so asking how many more would be enough is not the right question. But we have to face the reality of the current population, which does not look like getting to where I prefer any time soon (or ever).

[UndercoverElephant]

Still no answer to my question 'Where did I claim that?' in my response to you assertion that I 'claim that the UK is unlikely to be a desirable destination so it probably won't be a problem.'
And still not a single example to back up your allegation that I lied.

I don't think 'belief' is a useful concept in these sort of discussion. At best it might be restricted to my 'belief' that maximising individual freedom is a good thing. That's based on my support for a fundamental ethic, best summed up in the Wiccan Rede, 'An it harms none, do as ye will'.

So my starting point with regard to migration is that there should be freedom of movement. We already have that within nations (it was not always so) and between some nations, such as those within the Schengen Agreement. I would like such freedoms to be universal since it accords with the Wiccan Rede.

RUBBISH. As has been explained to your deaf ears ad infinitum, more immigration into the UK from countries in Eastern Europe with wages a fraction of those here causes very real harm to the poorest people in the UK. But you don't give a F--k about them do you, you slimy little git. They can go to hell.

You deserve more than verbal abuse. You deserve a punch in the face.

Some will raise the objection 'immigration to my part of the world may harm me'. And then we are into the business of weighing up what minimises harm, one person's freedom may impinge on another person's freedom. That's where it gets complicated.

Some people (including me) would judge that substantial net immigration to the UK is not desirable, but rather than pull up the drawbridge, I favour an approach that reduces the push and pull factors that cause the net immigration. This is more in accord with the Wiccan Rede.

I have no words to describe the loathing I feel towards you.

I have to stay away from this board. I can disagree with many people here and remain on reasonable terms with them, but I find your attitude to this topic so unbelievably smug while at the same time you fuel the rise of the hard right, that I cannot be part of this community without wanting to continually hurl abuse at you. I can't believe you do not understand this. Why the F--k do you think poor people end up voting for the BNP? Can you really see no connection between that happening and people like you coming out with the tripe you've been posting in this thread? YOU and your ilk don't give a shit about them. No, you care more about the poor people in the Ukraine and the rest of the world, because that fits your "Wiccan Rede", so you say. Well, if you're going to casually F--k over the poor in this country then they will turn to people like Nick Griffin. The saddest thing of all is the sort of thing you are posting actually justifies them doing this.

I have absolutely had enough of this. So long as you continue posting on this board, there is no place here for me.

[clv101]

RUBBISH. As has been explained to your deaf ears ad infinitum, more immigration into the UK from countries in Eastern Europe with wages a fraction of those here causes very real harm to the poorest people in the UK. But you don't give a **** about them do you, you slimy little git. They can go to hell.

But presumably the even poorer folk in Eastern Europe benefit a lot from being able to work in other parts of Europe. Sure, it might be bad news for poor people here in the UK, and you're justified to be sticking up for them. But what about the Bulgarians and Romanians? Shouldn't someone also be sticking up for them? Should the fact they happen to have been born behind an arbitrary line on a map prevent them from earning a decent wage?

There's no right and wrong here.

[AndySir]

No, you care more about the poor people in the Ukraine and the rest of the world, because that fits your "Wiccan Rede", so you say.

I think the point is that we would care equally for the people of the Ukraine as we do the people of Uttoxeter. That would be a fairly universal moral statement. Would you explicitly reject this?

ETA: Given that you support complete withdrawal from the EU and (presumably) a zero immigration policy, what exactly do you see the differences being between your proposition and the policies of the far right?

[woodburner]

Of course there is, UE is right (or SC),Biff is wrong.How do I know? UE and SC say so.

[clv101]

Why the **** do you think poor people end up voting for the BNP? Can you really see no connection between that happening and people like you coming out with the tripe you've been posting in this thread? YOU and your ilk don't give a shit about them. No, you care more about the poor people in the Ukraine and the rest of the world, because that fits your "Wiccan Rede", so you say. Well, if you're going to casually **** over the poor in this country then they will turn to people like Nick Griffin. The saddest thing of all is the sort of thing you are posting actually justifies them doing this.

Re the bit in bold, really UE? I don't see anything biffvernon has posted suggesting he care more about those in other countries. It seems very clear that he thinks everyone should have the same opportunities. Is that position so bad as deserve the abuse he's getting?

[woodburner]

I wonder how much alcohol or other intoxicating substances are affecting the input of some posters here.

For me, zero.

[vtsnowedin]

I wonder how much alcohol or other intoxicating substances are affecting the input of some posters here.

For me, zero.

Isssh depends on za time o day an ooh appy da hour wasss.

[jonny2mad]

No, you care more about the poor people in the Ukraine and the rest of the world, because that fits your "Wiccan Rede", so you say.

I think the point is that we would care equally for the people of the Ukraine as we do the people of Uttoxeter. That would be a fairly universal moral statement. Would you explicitly reject this?

ETA: Given that you support complete withdrawal from the EU and (presumably) a zero immigration policy, what exactly do you see the differences being between your proposition and the policies of the far right?

Do you have any family do you care the same for them as you do for distant strangers ?

[jonny2mad]

RUBBISH. As has been explained to your deaf ears ad infinitum, more immigration into the UK from countries in Eastern Europe with wages a fraction of those here causes very real harm to the poorest people in the UK. But you don't give a **** about them do you, you slimy little git. They can go to hell.

But presumably the even poorer folk in Eastern Europe benefit a lot from being able to work in other parts of Europe. Sure, it might be bad news for poor people here in the UK, and you're justified to be sticking up for them. But what about the Bulgarians and Romanians? Shouldn't someone also be sticking up for them? Should the fact they happen to have been born behind an arbitrary line on a map prevent them from earning a decent wage?

There's no right and wrong here.

Again do you have any family do you care the same for them as you do for distant strangers.
I'm honest I look after kin first so if I was in lifeboat and you and andy sir were there and my sister, and I had to throw one of you out of a lifeboat, I'd throw you and andysir out first. Your lives matter less to me than do my kin and close friends, but I would prefer helping most brits to people from bulgaria

[woodburner]

There's some Brits I'd quite happily ditch in preference to some Bulgarians.

[clv101]

Do you have any family do you care the same for them as you do for distant strangers ?

I care more about family, sure, but I honest don't care more about a complete stranger from UK than a complete stranger from Bulgaria.

[Little John]

Do you have any family do you care the same for them as you do for distant strangers ?

I care more about family, sure, but I honest don't care more about a complete stranger from UK than a complete stranger from Bulgaria.

That "stranger" from the UK; They pay taxes that pay for your roads, your railways, your healthcare all of the other services that keep you safe and protect your life and liberties. The poorest of which, by the way, contribute by far the most as a percentage of their income and who consequently feel the most financial pain of that contribution. But you post here that you don't give a shit about them any more than someone who has not yet contributed any taxes to pay for all of the above? All of which is in a context where those who already reside here are in pain and are suffering right now. right now, there are two million of our citizens who are regularly having to obtain food from charity food banks just to feed their families because they can't get enough work to pay for the essentials of life. Just have a think about that the next time you need one of those services.

f***ing shame on you

There'll be a f***ing reckoning coming.