EU immigration row / time to get out

[jonny2mad]

hmmm could asking that the spouse earns more money discourage people marrying for a passport. Ive worked with people and heard them literally all night day after day talk about ways to game the immigration system .

And the group on the small island is defined largely by ties of blood and common history. When people like yourself have encouraged enough alien people to this country and we have a bosnia style civil war I imagine you will go well why did that happen


I think you must find the world very confusing I mean why did the hutu kill 800,000 tutsi in 100 days with machetes, why did the germans persecute the jews, what caused the yugoslavia war ....surely if everybodys one people none of this would happen

[biffvernon]

why did the hutu kill 800,000 tutsi in 100 days with machetes, why did the germans persecute the jews, what caused the yugoslavia war ....surely if everybodys one people none of this would happen

Indeed, but too many people are still stuck in the tribal/national paradigm and wars will continue until more people have compassion for the stranger.

[jonny2mad]

the tribal paradigm has its original base in evolution good luck with bucking that long term

And to sleeperservice not only did we declare war on the germans, we got peace offers and hitlers deputy rudolf hess trying to get peace with the uk

Funny enough I was helping a friend at a car boot sale on the weekend and he sold the identical leaflet to this one to a old bloke who had collected the same leaflet as a boy but lost it the luftwaffe drops thousands of themhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peoples ... 1510.shtml

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... sians.html

But churchill so wanted a war with hitler he sided with the stalinist communists and at the end of the war the people we went in to save and half of europe were conquered by those communists, the germans had millions of dead we had hundreds of thousands of dead .

But hey we had to fight the germans because they wanted to invade us, us declaring war on them and bombing them didnt have anything to do with it

[biffvernon]

the tribal paradigm has its original base in evolution good luck with bucking that long term

Much of what I spend most of every day doing has little basis in evolution. Civilization means leaving that paradigm old behind.

As for your re-writing of 20th century history...nah, the future is more important.

[woodburner]

Ignore history at your peril. It often repeats itself.

[UndercoverElephant]

..too many people are still stuck in the tribal/national paradigm and wars will continue until more people have compassion for the stranger.

You are a total f*****g idiot, Biff Vernon, and this post sums up the problem perfectly. "Too many people are stuck in the national paradigm", are they? No, Biff, the REAL WORLD is "stuck in the national paradigm". You know...that REAL WORLD that YOU AND I AND EVERYBODY ELSE ACTUALLY F******G LIVE IN.

What purpose does it serve to base your opinions/worldview/preaching on some fantasy that does not exist and is never likely to exist (i.e. a world where everybody lives in peace under a benevolent one-world government and fluffy bunnies go to heaven)?

Answer: it serves to prop up BiffVernon's delusions of moral superiority. That's all it is. You aren't actually doing any good in the world by posting this crap. All you are doing is making J2M look like a realist people should actually be taking notice of, and giving yourself warm fuzzy feelings. Meanwhile, you are criticising people like myself and SteveCook who are trying to find a way to be compassionate and realistic at the same time, and irritating us to the point where we find it impossible to continue being part of the same community as you, and stop posting on this board. You don't get it, but what you post and think smells of roses actually stinks to high heaven of shit.

[AndySir]

A longer break may have been required, UE.

In the context of Europe and that nasty North American trade / copyright treaty that's coming in nationalism certainly seems to be on it's may out. I know many on this board are likely to find the prospect of the replacement of sovereign democratic bodies with unaccountable trans-nationals to be chilling, but that does appear to be the real world that you and I and everyone else live in.

So the replacement of the national/tribal paradigm is already happening and with that a certain colour and creed blindness as citizens become 'human capital' or 'resources'. Embracing nationalism, with all it's flaws, appears to be a knee-jerk reaction against this - simply clinging to the familiarity of the past. Preaching on a fantasy version of the new paradigm seems to me to be engaging with reality and suggesting how it may be made to work.

[emordnilap]

..too many people are still stuck in the tribal/national paradigm and wars will continue until more people have compassion for the stranger.

This is actually true. Whether one likes the statement or no, it's still true. I agree it's not 'real politick' but then that's a problem with real politick, which is just PC term for bullying.

UE, I enjoy reasoned posts and often take note of what they have to say, so keep saying 'em. I forgive your rants too but.

[Tarrel]

So the replacement of the national/tribal paradigm is already happening and with that a certain colour and creed blindness as citizens become 'human capital' or 'resources'. Embracing nationalism, with all it's flaws, appears to be a knee-jerk reaction against this - simply clinging to the familiarity of the past. Preaching on a fantasy version of the new paradigm seems to me to be engaging with reality and suggesting how it may be made to work.

National maybe, tribal I'm not so sure.

I recently worked with a large multinational that celebrates its global reach. It works hard to develop its own cultural identity which is different and separate from the cultures in which it operates. This includes a value system and "moral compass" that it expects all employees to sign up to. Sounds like synthesised tribalism?

[AndySir]

I see your point, but that is tribalism in the sense of social conformity rather than a segmentary society.

[biffvernon]

Happy Christmas/Solstice/Winnterval/Whateverfloatsyerboat

[jonny2mad]

Less cheap energy = more local

Less cheap energy and resources =more conflict

All in all I see any globalisation moves as a last Gasp before the coming ages of tribalism

[jonny2mad]

happy christmas to you biff and all you powerswitchers

[AndySir]

Indeed, the backlash against globalism seems to be intensifying. The thing I find most disturbing is that is it those hippies who consider themselves realists who are providing the moral cover for this recidivism as beneficial for sustainability and the environment. That's not a jab exclusively at UE, I'm frequently guilty of this as well. When the faced with the obvious threats of the 21st century the temptation to build the barricades can be overwhelming.

I found my image of the green movement as a bunch of well meaning old hippies severely shaken when I found this cancer in it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Green_Voice. He came to my door during one of the Scottish Elections.

[emordnilap]

Indeed, the backlash against globalism seems to be intensifying.

It does but it may be too piecemeal to be genuinely effective; there's no major signs of this backlash in most minority-world countries - the ones with the most to lose.