EU immigration row / time to get out

[UndercoverElephant]

What has changed is this:

(1) Great Britain is FULL. There are twice as many people here as can be sensibly supported in a sustainable manner.

(2) WE HAVE PASSED PEAK OIL AND FACE A NEW ERA OF DECREASING NATURAL RESOURCES AND INCREASING INSTABILITY AND HARDSHIP ALL OVER THE PLANET WE LIVE ON.

Hey, you know one solution to both those problems would be to say, allow wealth to travel overseas moving us closer to the global average income (about $10k I think). That would stop people wanting to immigrate here and - double bonus - we'd use less of those declining resources.

I don't have a problem with wealthy people leaving the UK, just so long as they are not allowed to continue owning property here. I certainly don't buy into the bullshit threats from rich people about how they'd leave if action was taken to even out the wealth within the UK. Good riddance as far as I am concerned.

[UndercoverElephant]

Exactly so Andy. Sadly, a lot of English people want to defend England's above global average wealth.

I want to defend England/Britain's above global average cultural standards, and I want to create an England/Britain which is sustainable. You, apparently, care nothing about either of these things.

[jonny2mad]

biff do you make more than 10,000 dollars a year that’s 6,109 pounds and working lots of hours in bad conditions or 600 pound a year which is average income in Afghanistan

You own a house I know some people who don’t they should own your house

Basically Andy your solution is make life worse here, how worse do you want it why be the average wealth why not make the country the poorest country on earth.
If your average wealthy you will still attract the poor so why not make the country as poor and backward as Afghanistan or Haiti

[jonny2mad]

I can kind of understand what you guys are saying it’s a form of mental illness, if only I had the power to create the sort of country you guys would like really quickly in a sort of wonderful life jimmy Stewart sort of way

I imagine biff like a jolly well meaning fellow plodding along, I'd just like to fill your village with hordes of Haitians or afghans not one or two of them but hundreds or thousands.



you can't stone that women you would go or voodoos illegal
And people ask why I stock up on so much popcorn

[AndySir]

Exactly so Andy. Sadly, a lot of English people want to defend England's above global average wealth.

I want to defend England/Britain's above global average cultural standards, and I want to create an England/Britain which is sustainable. You, apparently, care nothing about either of these things.

I might suggest that the reason Britain's 'cultural standards' (I'm choosing to believe that we're talking about our education ranking, corruption ranking, etc.) are above average is that the bottom third of that table is comprised of people earning a dollar a day.

Again, we've often spoken on this board about how maintenance of inequality is unsustainable in the UK and US... I remember SC's phrase about the people seeking 'lamppost and rope based solutions'. We assume people will be angry and rise up. Yet a massive wealth gap between the UK and the developing world is seen as necessary to sustainability? The pissed off people overseas may not show up here to topple the government, but they may decide to discover the joys of eminent domain and nationalize our companies' holdings over there.

[SleeperService]

Sentence 1 They are encouraged by the same breed of politician we have, by their own greed for bonuses and by the big share holders greed. The result is that greater long-term gains are often dropped in favour of smaller short-term gains. In other words investment, and provision for it, is reduced and the competition (who do invest) gains advantage.

Like it or not, "they" the politicians and "they" the greedy capitalists, are us. they are not a different breed of human.

Yes, they are different. The people who the current system favours are completely opposite to me in outlook. They want to have all the cake and not leave any for others despite the fact it'll never be eaten. I want everybody to have a slice even if some slices are a little larger.

A lot are 'proud' to be labelled as having 'psychopathic tendencies' which is another way of saying 'extremely greedy and selfish' or don't care about anybody or anything but themselves'.

If you really believe we are all the same I don't believe you. If a hostel for asylum seekers or criminals was proposed in your street would you object? I didn't.....

[SleeperService]

What has changed is this:

(1) Great Britain is FULL. There are twice as many people here as can be sensibly supported in a sustainable manner.

(2) WE HAVE PASSED PEAK OIL AND FACE A NEW ERA OF DECREASING NATURAL RESOURCES AND INCREASING INSTABILITY AND HARDSHIP ALL OVER THE PLANET WE LIVE ON.

Hey, you know one solution to both those problems would be to say, allow wealth to travel overseas moving us closer to the global average income (about $10k I think). That would stop people wanting to immigrate here and - double bonus - we'd use less of those declining resources.

I don't have a problem with wealthy people leaving the UK, just so long as they are not allowed to continue owning property here. I certainly don't buy into the bullshit threats from rich people about how they'd leave if action was taken to even out the wealth within the UK. Good riddance as far as I am concerned.

Great Britian isn't FULL. There are more people per square mile than in other countries and less than some others. The problem is that there is no joined up thinking which causes inefficient housing and transport usage. Another issue is that a certain class of people want airports, shopping centres, electricity, gas, fuel and food but want it to be twenty miles away so they aren't affected by them when they aren't using them.

A few years ago a whole host of financial institutions threatened to leave London completely when tighter regulations were introduced. In the event six left, NONE of them had paid any tax in the UK, the UK staff were in the lower pay levels all the high earners were foreign nationals. I'll even give them a lift to the airport. As I've said before I'd also relieve them of their UK passports. If they're that selfish they won't make good citizens in any system I'd support.

[biffvernon]

Great Britain isn't FULL. There are more people per square mile than in other countries and less than some others.

Most of Britain is pretty empty. That's the way I like it and I chose to live in a fairly empty part. Most people, however, choose to live in the more full parts and are willing to pay for it by having housing cost vastly greater than mine and sitting in traffic jams for a large proportion of their time. Takes all sorts.

I would prefer it if Britain's population was bit smaller but most folk seem to flock to where the crowds are so to say that Britain is full is clearly nonsense.

[Little John]

Hey, you know one solution to both those problems would be to say, allow wealth to travel overseas moving us closer to the global average income (about $10k I think). That would stop people wanting to immigrate here and - double bonus - we'd use less of those declining resources.

I don't have a problem with wealthy people leaving the UK, just so long as they are not allowed to continue owning property here. I certainly don't buy into the bullshit threats from rich people about how they'd leave if action was taken to even out the wealth within the UK. Good riddance as far as I am concerned.

Great Britian isn't FULL. There are more people per square mile than in other countries and less than some others. The problem is that there is no joined up thinking which causes inefficient housing and transport usage. Another issue is that a certain class of people want airports, shopping centres, electricity, gas, fuel and food but want it to be twenty miles away so they aren't affected by them when they aren't using them.

A few years ago a whole host of financial institutions threatened to leave London completely when tighter regulations were introduced. In the event six left, NONE of them had paid any tax in the UK, the UK staff were in the lower pay levels all the high earners were foreign nationals. I'll even give them a lift to the airport. As I've said before I'd also relieve them of their UK passports. If they're that selfish they won't make good citizens in any system I'd support.

You need to define "FULL" before you can state with such flippant confidence that the UK is not "FULL". What do you mean by "FULL"? What is the number at which you would consider the UK to be no longer not "FULL"?

[Little John]

Great Britain isn't FULL. There are more people per square mile than in other countries and less than some others.

Most of Britain is pretty empty. That's the way I like it and I chose to live in a fairly empty part. Most people, however, choose to live in the more full parts and are willing to pay for it by having housing cost vastly greater than mine and sitting in traffic jams for a large proportion of their time. Takes all sorts.

I would prefer it if Britain's population was bit smaller but most folk seem to flock to where the crowds are so to say that Britain is full is clearly nonsense.

You need to define "empty" before you can state with such flippant confidence that the UK is "pretty empty". What do you mean by "pretty empty"? What is the number at which you would consider the UK to no longer be "pretty empty"?

[biffvernon]

Dark blue = not empty
Medium blues = pretty empty
Light blue = very empty

[biffvernon]

For comparison:

[kenneal - lagger]

Great Britian isn't FULL.

I don't think Britain's residual wildlife would agree with that! They're feeling pretty crowded in most areas what with our food production as well as living.

[Little John]

Dark blue = not empty
Medium blues = pretty empty
Light blue = very empty

You’ve provided a graphic of population density without any reference to an underlying metric by which it may be objectively determined what density is sustainable. Your graphic is utterly meaningless without that underlying metric. Supply it or your assertion can be dismissed as baseless rhetoric.

[Tarrel]

For comparison:

A useful resource for anyone looking for a quiet bolt-hole. Glad I live in a dark-green bit!

As an aside, one of my wife's many activities is ante-natal education. When we were considering our move to Scotland, she looked at some birth statistics. For the year in question (2011 I think), the number of births at the maternity unit in our local Hampshire hospital (Frimley Park) exceeded those for the entire Highlands and Islands region. And there were at least three other similar-sized maternity units within a 15 mile radius!