EU immigration row / time to get out

[AndySir]

In other cases it is to do with the poor countries in question being totally culturally backwards, and that is not the fault of people in the rich countries.

Ah, the undeserving poor. That distinction's as old as Shakespeare.

[clv101]

I certainly wasn't referring to any post of yours - rather the general sentiment in the media. Folk seem unhappy at the unfairly wealthy bankers but also unhappy at the poor folk moving here (assuming they'll lose out somehow).

[UndercoverElephant]

In other cases it is to do with the poor countries in question being totally culturally backwards, and that is not the fault of people in the rich countries.

Ah, the undeserving poor. That distinction's as old as Shakespeare.

Again you are putting words into my mouth. I said what I said, not anything about the "undeserving poor". It is not the fault of anybody outside of, for example, Zimbabwe, that the average standard of living in that country is very low. There is nothing anybody can do to help them, because their biggest problem is that their country is being run by a lunatic, who they have failed to get rid of.

[AndySir]

It is not the fault of anybody outside of, for example, Zimbabwe, that the average standard of living in that country is very low. There is nothing anybody can do to help them, because their biggest problem is that their country is being run by a lunatic, who they have failed to get rid of.

Except perhaps the colonial power that installed and maintained a massive inequality in wealth between the white elite and the African workers? The forcible toppling of which lead to utter disaster? That's a very odd case study to pick, given a forcible redistribution of wealth is what is being predicted here.

Also again admire the collective responsibility the Zimbabweans bear for Mugabe. I somehow doubt you would accept a similar collective responsibility for, say, the war in Iraq or even for the actions of British bankers in the Caymans or British Virgin Islands.

[jonny2mad]

It is not the fault of anybody outside of, for example, Zimbabwe, that the average standard of living in that country is very low. There is nothing anybody can do to help them, because their biggest problem is that their country is being run by a lunatic, who they have failed to get rid of.

Except perhaps the colonial power that installed and maintained a massive inequality in wealth between the white elite and the African workers? The forcible toppling of which lead to utter disaster? That's a very odd case study to pick, given a forcible redistribution of wealth is what is being predicted here.

Also again admire the collective responsibility the Zimbabweans bear for Mugabe. I somehow doubt you would accept a similar collective responsibility for, say, the war in Iraq or even for the actions of British bankers in the Caymans or British Virgin Islands.

Before the awful colonialists arrived sub saharen africa didnt have the wheel, they also didnt have roads railways factorys. If you imagine a world where the white colonialists didnt arrive africa would be in the same state it was before they arrived maybe worse . Think of all the awful colonialists who wasted their lives building schools to raise up africa what paternalist fools, and their grandchildren are still doing it with NGO's and Charity

[UndercoverElephant]

It is not the fault of anybody outside of, for example, Zimbabwe, that the average standard of living in that country is very low. There is nothing anybody can do to help them, because their biggest problem is that their country is being run by a lunatic, who they have failed to get rid of.

Except perhaps the colonial power that installed and maintained a massive inequality in wealth between the white elite and the African workers? The forcible toppling of which lead to utter disaster? That's a very odd case study to pick, given a forcible redistribution of wealth is what is being predicted here.

Also again admire the collective responsibility the Zimbabweans bear for Mugabe. I somehow doubt you would accept a similar collective responsibility for, say, the war in Iraq or even for the actions of British bankers in the Caymans or British Virgin Islands.

Of course I don't accept responsibility for the actions of British bankers, and you're still putting words into my mouth. This is what I said: "the situation inside Zimbabwe is not the responsibility of anybody outside of Zimbabwe." I do not believe it was the responsibility of the colonialists. The sad truth is that the black population in Zimbabwe was better off when their country was being run by white people, but that is all ancient history now. The point I was making, which you have repeatedly missed, is not one about who in Zimbabwe is responsible for the plight of the Zimbabwean people, but about the fact that it is not the fault of anybody in the developed world.

[AndySir]

Before the awful colonialists arrived sub saharen africa didnt have the wheel, they also didnt have roads railways factorys.

I have no idea why I'm bothering to respond to J2M but that's a little too egregious to ignore. The Assyrians were quite famous for their war chariots, as well as seige weapons and (possibily) telescopes or at least lenses in 2000BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria#Arts_and_sciences

[AndySir]

The sad truth is that the black population in Zimbabwe was better off when their country was being run by white people, but that is all ancient history now.

You see, we don't need SteveCook's liberals to conflate concern about immigration and racism. If you prod people long enough the racism surfaces on its own.

[Little John]

In other cases it is to do with the poor countries in question being totally culturally backwards, and that is not the fault of people in the rich countries.

Ah, the undeserving poor. That distinction's as old as Shakespeare.

Again you are putting words into my mouth. I said what I said, not anything about the "undeserving poor". It is not the fault of anybody outside of, for example, Zimbabwe, that the average standard of living in that country is very low. There is nothing anybody can do to help them, because their biggest problem is that their country is being run by a lunatic, who they have failed to get rid of.

Putting words in people's mouths. erecting false dichotomies and aunt Sally’s, these are all the disingenuous debating hallmarks of Andy Sir. Expect much more of the same before this thread is out.

[jonny2mad]

Before the awful colonialists arrived sub saharen africa didnt have the wheel, they also didnt have roads railways factorys.

I have no idea why I'm bothering to respond to J2M but that's a little too egregious to ignore. The Assyrians were quite famous for their war chariots, as well as seige weapons and (possibily) telescopes or at least lenses in 2000BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria#Arts_and_sciences

hmm google https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=where ... 0&bih=1066 where assyria is located

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa map in top right hand corner defines sub saharen africa .

yup the Assyrians and people of egypt had the wheel and chariots the people of zimbabwe didnt

[UndercoverElephant]

The sad truth is that the black population in Zimbabwe was better off when their country was being run by white people, but that is all ancient history now.

You see, we don't need SteveCook's liberals to conflate concern about immigration and racism. If you prod people long enough the racism surfaces on its own.

My comments have absolutely nothing to do with racism. Racism is discrimination against people based on race. All I am doing is making a simple, and undeniable, statement of historical fact. It is the truth that in Zimbabwe, and also in several other countries in that region, living standards have fallen because the black governments that replaced the white colonial ones are so corrupt and useless that the consequences are even worse than the institutionalised discrimination of the colonial systems. I'm not discriminating against anyone. I'm not offering an opinion on what political system should exist in those countries. I am simply pointing out the facts, and that you've responded by calling me a racist indicates nothing apart from that you are uncomfortable with those facts. That's your problem, not mine.

[AndySir]

It is the truth that in Zimbabwe, and also in several other countries in that region, living standards have fallen because the black governments that replaced the white colonial ones are so corrupt and useless that the consequences are even worse than the institutionalised discrimination of the colonial systems.

And this is why I call you racist.

On the facts: Zimbabwe boomed economically in the decades following independence despite trade sanctions which are still ongoing. 5% growth according to wikipedia, year on year. You are aware that the first ever trade sanctions against a single state were against the new Zimbabwe in 1968? The largest wealth source is mining, of which the majority is controlled by Anglo American. Of course the land distribution in 2000 was famously disastrous and the government corrupt but it's that generality which marks the difference from criticism of a government or a policy from racism. The 'black' governments are corrupt and useless, as if it were their blackness that was the problem.

[UndercoverElephant]

AndySir,

Everything SteveCook has said about your ability to conduct an honest/fair debate is true. All you are doing in this thread is making unjustified accusations of racism and playing silly games instead of having a straight debate.

It is the truth that in Zimbabwe, and also in several other countries in that region, living standards have fallen because the black governments that replaced the white colonial ones are so corrupt and useless that the consequences are even worse than the institutionalised discrimination of the colonial systems.

And this is why I call you racist.

You are calling me a racist because I am pointing out the indisputable, obvious fact that the indigenous people of the region in question are black and their historical colonial rulers were white? In that case you, Sir, are an idiot. I am merely pointing out facts. You know...saying things which are indisputably true! I am not making any moral judgements, nor am I saying what ought to have happened or ought to happen now. Or are you objecting to my use of the terms "white" instead of "caucasian" and "black" instead of...instead of...erm, that's a technical term for people who come from sub-saharan Africa.

You are obviously very upset about something and I can tell you exactly what it is. The colonial rulers of sub-saharan Africa, who were white Europeans, were, quite obviously, racists. They had a political system which quite explictly discriminated against the indigenous black population and in favour of white colonisers. And they fought hard to retain that system as the outside world assisted the black population in its struggle to regain power. Those white colonialists justified their racist system thus: "the blacks are not fit to rule; if they are allowed to run this country, a catastrophe will follow." What you, Andysir, don't like, is the FACT, uncomfortable as it is, that in a large proportion of the countries in question, those white colonial racists turned out to be correct: a catastrophe did indeed follow. Now...maybe the current situation is temporary, and the problems manifest in that part of the world are going to be solved. But you have to be an eternal optimist, at this point, to believe that this is so, and the optimism is not justified by what is happening on the ground.

So there you have it. It is a FACT that those racists have been proven correct. It is NOT racist in itself to point out this FACT.

On the facts: Zimbabwe boomed economically in the decades following independence despite trade sanctions which are still ongoing. 5% growth according to wikipedia, year on year. You are aware that the first ever trade sanctions against a single state were against the new Zimbabwe in 1968? The largest wealth source is mining, of which the majority is controlled by Anglo American.

Yep, and it is totally irrelevant to what I am saying.

Of course the land distribution in 2000 was famously disastrous and the government corrupt but it's that generality which marks the difference from criticism of a government or a policy from racism. The 'black' governments are corrupt and useless, as if it were their blackness that was the problem.

Stop putting words into my mouth, AndySir. And stop making wild accusations and getting angry with me because you can't cope with the reality of what is happening in that part of the world. You are absolutely desperate to avoid admitting to yourself or anybody else that the racists who once justified their racism by predicting a catastrophe if the black population was allowed to govern have unfortunately been proved correct. That doesn't make them morally right. It does not justify their racism. It does not mean they should have been left in charge. I have neither said nor implied any of those things. It is just what it is: a FACT that you don't happen to like. Unfortunately, you not liking it doesn't change the reality.

If you want to ask the question "Why have the black governments that replaced the racist colonial governments failed so dismally?" then ask it. I have neither asked nor answered it, but you have decided to put words into my mouth. You're posting as if I have asked this question and provided the answer "those governments failed because they were black, and blacks are indeed unfit to rule." But that, AndySir, is all an extrapolation that is going on in your own head. It is not actually in any of my posts. We have not had that debate, and I have no intention of having it now, especially not with somebody whose debating skills are as poor as yours are.

[jonny2mad]

wouldnt you expect a growth in trade after a long running civil war and zimbabwe has the potential to be a rich country, but it had that potential for thousands of years when there were only black people there, it also had the potential for people who could understand and use the wheel.

It would be interesting to think what economic growth Rhodesia could have had without the constant terrorist murder campaign, or if the whites in that country had taken the offer of a ethno-state .

it would be interesting to see how well a boer ethno state might work in south africa

[UndercoverElephant]

It would be interesting to think what economic growth Rhodesia could have had without the constant terrorist murder campaign, or if the whites in that country had taken the offer of a ethno-state .

it would be interesting to see how well a boer ethno state might work in south africa

Hypothetical questions that have no answers. And not especially interesting ones, IMO. What happened is what happened. We are where we are. You can't rewrite history or start from anywhere else other than here. And even if you could run some experiment and find out the answer to your hypothetical questions, I don't see how those answers would help anybody very much.

As far as I am concerned the situation is this: the destiny of the people of sub-saharan Africa should be in the hands of the people of sub-saharan Africa. Outsiders should stop meddling and stop telling them what they should do. Our own model for running the world clearly doesn't work either, so I'm not sure we are in much of a position to tell them they should be doing it our way. Or put more simply: I don't even have an opinion about what is the best for that part of the world. I don't have any answers, and do not want to pretend that I do.