Fossil Fuel Subsidies

[biffvernon]

Here's a useful report of fossil fuel subsidies and climate change, from Shelagh Whitly of the Overseas Development Institute:

http://www.odi.org.uk/sites/odi.org.uk/ ... s/8668.pdf

[vtsnowedin]

Here's a useful report of fossil fuel subsidies and climate change, from Shelagh Whitly of the Overseas Development Institute:

http://www.odi.org.uk/sites/odi.org.uk/ ... s/8668.pdf

From the executive summary:

These subsidies take different forms, including:
• Germany: financial assistance of €1.9 billion in 2011 to the hard coal sector
• United States: $1 billion fuel tax exemption for farmers, $1 billion for the strategic petroleum reserve, and $0.5 billion for fossil energy research and development in 2011
• United Kingdom: tax concessions of £280 million in 2011 for oil and gas production.

It is hard for me to take seriously someone that considers not charging farmers highway construction tax on their tractor fuel as a subsidy.
I'm all for a level playing field but I would not take these guys readings on what is level.

[emordnilap]

Subsidising farmers generally is a something I detest, particularly once you get over the level of small farms.

Ireland has the most ludicrous system ever for subsidising farmers' diesel - it's dispensed at a separate pump and coloured green. It's less than two-thirds the prices of regular diesel.

So this means anyone who wants to, can buy it. Whether you get away with using it is another matter and creates mountains of unnecessary work for the police, guessing which tanks might contain green diesel and then checking them.

The simple way, if you must subsidise an industry, is to charge full price everywhere and then have registered bona fide users claim back the duty. But no, that's too simple.

[RenewableCandy]

Here's a useful report of fossil fuel subsidies and climate change, from Shelagh Whitly of the Overseas Development Institute:

http://www.odi.org.uk/sites/odi.org.uk/ ... s/8668.pdf

From the executive summary:

These subsidies take different forms, including:
• Germany: financial assistance of €1.9 billion in 2011 to the hard coal sector
• United States: $1 billion fuel tax exemption for farmers, $1 billion for the strategic petroleum reserve, and $0.5 billion for fossil energy research and development in 2011
• United Kingdom: tax concessions of £280 million in 2011 for oil and gas production.

It is hard for me to take seriously someone that considers not charging farmers highway construction tax on their tractor fuel as a subsidy.
.

I'm quite sure that in the USA that'd have a point: you could happily drive your red-diesel-powered combo round your amber waves of grain all day without ever seeing a road. However, in our small and crowded island, you often come across farm traffic on the Queen's Highway as it travels from patch to patch.

[vtsnowedin]

Here's a useful report of fossil fuel subsidies and climate change, from Shelagh Whitly of the Overseas Development Institute:

http://www.odi.org.uk/sites/odi.org.uk/ ... s/8668.pdf

From the executive summary:

These subsidies take different forms, including:
• Germany: financial assistance of €1.9 billion in 2011 to the hard coal sector
• United States: $1 billion fuel tax exemption for farmers, $1 billion for the strategic petroleum reserve, and $0.5 billion for fossil energy research and development in 2011
• United Kingdom: tax concessions of £280 million in 2011 for oil and gas production.

It is hard for me to take seriously someone that considers not charging farmers highway construction tax on their tractor fuel as a subsidy.
.

I'm quite sure that in the USA that'd have a point: you could happily drive your red-diesel-powered combo round your amber waves of grain all day without ever seeing a road. However, in our small and crowded island, you often come across farm traffic on the Queen's Highway as it travels from patch to patch.

First off the farmers still have to pay fuel tax for fuel used in over the road trucks that carry crop to market or feed from field to barn via highway. It's just the machines that do their job in the fields or woods that are exempt. The same goes for construction equipment. The bulldozer and excavator are off road no tax but the dump truck that hauls the fill is taxed and taxed again.
But back to my point. Choosing to not tax something is not a subsidy as long as all competitors in that class are also not taxed or are taxed the same. To consider a non tax a subsidy is nothing short of a lie and makes the rest of their argument useless.

[biffvernon]

Fossil fuel's (and nuclear's) really big subsidy is it's externalisation of environmental costs.

The cost of a new planet is not on the invoice.

[vtsnowedin]

Fossil fuel's (and nuclear's) really big subsidy is it's externalisation of environmental costs.

The cost of a new planet is not on the invoice.

Good point.

[emordnilap]

Why is repealing a subsidy for oil and gas or nuclear energy production a tax increase on energy producers and consumers while repealing an incentive on alternative, renewable energy is not? This is all part of intellectual dishonest argument.

Something we have to endure daily. Republican Senator Charles Grassley lists some of the tax breaks enjoyed by the American oily-garchs.

[vtsnowedin]

Why is repealing a subsidy for oil and gas or nuclear energy production a tax increase on energy producers and consumers while repealing an incentive on alternative, renewable energy is not? This is all part of intellectual dishonest argument.

Something we have to endure daily. Republican Senator Charles Grassley lists some of the tax breaks enjoyed by the American oily-garchs.

What he lists doesn,t seem to amount to much. Mostly just defining what expenses are legitimate deductions from gross profits. Someone will jump in and say that such and such rule hands the oil companys five or ten billion dollars over ten years. which may be true but the oil business(USA) is something on the order of 700 billion each year so the percentage we are talking about is relatively small. And of course if the government closes all loopholes and hand outs the increased cost to the oil corporations will just get passed on to we the customers. You didn't think the executives or stock holders were going to take a pay cut did you? $5.00 gas anyone?

[emordnilap]

the increased cost to the oil corporations will just get passed on to we the customers.

Yes, that is correct. So the users of the fossil fuels pay a fuller price, as opposed to lesser- or non-users.

This is why the cost to keeping the environment clean should be factored in to the fossil fuel price (TEQs/C&S etc) - users of fossil fuels would pay for the clean-up (not that that's possible now) proportionately.