Newcomer in search of a reading list... and then a plan

[boisdevie]

Once you equate energy=money=working for the man=not having the time to do stuff for yourself=having to work extra to pay people to do stuff for you=needing more money and around you go again.

I couldn't agree more. My GF has a top end digital camera that probably cost her in real terms a weeks worth of work. And she never uses it. Me, I'd rather have a week of freedom from work than something shiny I never use.

[eyeswide]

Yes... working in London is a good example. £20-35 for the pleasure of getting there, and if I've not been organised enough to pack a lunch, £5-10 for food far less tasty than I'd make at home.

I agree, there's a lot you can do without buying land. And there's definitely a lot more I could be doing than I currently am.

When I said self sufficient, I was thinking of a family friend who has a smallholding with chickens and pigs, a mini solar farm that she says actually makes her money, and a huge vegetable garden. That, to be realistic, is out of reach.

[emordnilap]

I might write my own.

Looking forward to it

Gah.

[emordnilap]

Self sufficient is not the aim. Co-sufficiency is the term. You need a good community around you, with people dealing with each other honestly, swapping skills, produce, tools, knowledge, time etc. Well, maybe not tools unless you're absolutely sure.

It's not easy, as society has been encouraged in the opposite direction for so long but you get the idea. It's something to work on.

[Tarrel]

quite unlikely to ever make enough money to buy the land necessary to become fully self sufficient'

You don't need to buy land. What most people do not realise for quite some time is their life is fossil fuel based. When they do realise it, they then take the not illogical mental leap and think they need land and become totally self sufficient.

What you could do is make a ledger of all the fossil fuels needed to supply your life at the Mo' then just take steps to reduce it. Insulation, car, consumer stuff, gas and electricity and food harvesting,growing,storage and preparation for example. You will be surprised at the amount of cash you save (remember energy is money)

An example; acquaintances of mine are having a tough time with jobs and cash at the moment. The food bill is an issue. I said that the bill was expensive because they were buying top end stuff ( all ready made stuff, pizzas,pies, very expensive fruit and veg etc)

I told him about the energy in food and how to avoid them e.g. donkey carrots are 95p for 12kg at the local veg market. Buy the sack and bury the carrots in a trench of soil and they seem to keep many weeks. He is now paying 3.6p a pound for carrots instead of the 79p a pound he was paying at the supermarket. A small example but applied to the rest of the shop it has made a considerable difference.

Once you equate energy=money=working for the man=not having the time to do stuff for yourself=having to work extra to pay people to do stuff for you=needing more money and around you go again.

Agree 100%. I think it's a common reaction to think you need to go and buy a "homestead" and live self-sufficiently. Gearing down / away from the vicious circle that Stuzmuzz alludes to can be very liberating. We work to a kind of consumer "triage", with three categories of stuff / expenses:
- Those we can and definitely should live without. We've eliminated these.
- Those that we enjoy and make life easier, but we could live without if we're honest. We are gradually making changes to remove the need for these.
- Those that are essential or required by law (e.g. Council tax). We keep reviewing the lists to ensure these genuinely ARE essential.

It can be psychologically challenging to go completely over the top with down-sizing when everyone around you is still on the consumer bandwagon. For us it's about continuing to enjoy the things that make life easy / pleasant, but weaning ourselves off them over time. That way the pleasure of being less dependent on money and vulnerable to price rises / shortages exceeds the pain of cutting back.

The other strategy I'd recommend is to invest spare cash (if any) in expense-reduction stuff (e.g energy-saving, renewable energy production such as solar PV, wood burning stoves, hand-tools, etc.). One-off investments in this area can provide benefits down the line for years in terms of cost-saving, and hedging against future price rises.

[woodburner]

I told him about the energy in food and how to avoid them e.g. donkey carrots are 95p for 12kg at the local veg market. Buy the sack and bury the carrots in a trench of soil and they seem to keep many weeks. He is now paying 3.6p a pound for carrots instead of the 79p a pound he was paying at the supermarket. A small example but applied to the rest of the shop it has made a considerable difference.

That's carrots sorted, now I need some donkey onions and donkey celery. Wonder which toilet paper donkeys use

[Tarrel]

How about some donkey-diesel and donkey-electricity?

[woodburner]

You'll be into donkey wind power next. Smells a bit though.

[Tarrel]

You'll be into donkey wind power next. Smells a bit though.

Well, we've considered a grid-connected doggy-treadmill as a more productive alternative to "walkies".

[woodburner]

Get an exercise bike for your mother and fit an alternator. If she needs any power, she's independent.

[vtsnowedin]

I think Stumzz point is well taken. Many today have never considered the costs involved in their pre packaged and prepared food that is a majority of the average market basket. Many kitchens today do not have a tin of baking powder on the shelf or five pounds of flour in the bin. If you’re unemployed you have plenty of time to cook from scratch and can eat well for much less.
It comes down to young people today have no idea about how to live poor and by their own devices.

[woodburner]

Hell! I've got 2lb of bicarb, 1/2lb of cream of tartar and 60lb of rye flour, with 50 packets of dried yeast.(Sorry, I'll get round to sour dough soon).

[vtsnowedin]

Hell! I've got 2lb of bicarb, 1/2lb of cream of tartar and 60lb of rye flour, with 50 packets of dried yeast.(Sorry, I'll get round to sour dough soon).

That's a lot of rye bread. I'd go more for wheat flour. Then you have bread, biscuits, flapjacks, dumplings, pizza dough, even egg noodles if you have some eggs. Why you could even eat cake.

[UndercoverElephant]

quite unlikely to ever make enough money to buy the land necessary to become fully self sufficient'

You don't need to buy land.

How many houses do you own? Please remind me.

I won't ask you about how much land you own in this post.

Or any other questions.

[....]

Russell Brand for PM.

[woodburner]

Hell! I've got 2lb of bicarb, 1/2lb of cream of tartar and 60lb of rye flour, with 50 packets of dried yeast.(Sorry, I'll get round to sour dough soon).

That's a lot of rye bread. I'd go more for wheat flour. Then you have bread, biscuits, flapjacks, dumplings, pizza dough, even egg noodles if you have some eggs. Why you could even eat cake.

I came across this (somewhat biased) article, but there are other supporting articles. All those wheaty things may not be a good thing.

http://drlwilson.com/ARTICLES/BREAD.htm

Then there's the blood sugar effect, white bread being about the same as table sugar.

http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm

The table makes more sense than this quote. Look for 229 in the list.

229 White bread, prepared with a 30 min prove and a 72±7 30 9
second 12 min proving (moderate loaf volume) (UK)
230 White bread, prepared with a 60 min prove and a 86±9 30 11
second 30 min proving (moderate loaf volume) (UK)
231 White bread, prepared with a 40 min prove, a second 100±7 30 13
25 min proving and a third 50 min proving
(large loaf volume) (UK)

Rye bread (154 to 165) show lower figures, so I changed from wheat. It can be used for the same things wheat is used for but the texture is different. Still fine for taste and feel, just different.

The surprise is where spelt is in the glycemic load figures.