HS2

[woodburner]

Hmmm, no doubt clv will provide an input, but the figuress don't add up. The claim is hundreds of thousands of jobs will be created, so lets see.......

100,000 jobs, at an average cost of £30,000 pa/job so £3bn/year.

Income from the trains will have to pay for these jobs, as it is claimed to be a commercially viable project. Lets say 500 people per train and 5 trains per hour, but I doubt trains outside peak times will carry that number, so how about 10,000 people per day travelling to London?

Income from passengers will be £4m a day. As long as it's only staff costs involved, they will be around £10m a day, perhaps a bit less as I used 300 days a year. Not many people will be travelling at weekends.

Anybody want to throw in some more figures?

[RenewableCandy]

Are you sure they weren't just talking about the jobs created by constructing it (as opposed to running it after construction has finished)?

[woodburner]

I suspect they wern't talking about anying in particular, just throwing impressive numbers about to soften up any opposition.

[adam2]

I suspect that we are going to need HS2, partly to cater for population growth.
In London there is an enormous shortage of primary school places, it has been suggested that we need to build a new primary school every day for the forseeable future in order to keep up with the birth rate.

In perhaps 10 or 15 years those kids will grow up, and it seems a fair assumption that some at least will want to use the train to Birmingham or points furthur North.

Add to that the probability that some of those who drive or fly now will transfer to rail in the future, and the need for increased rail capacity becomes clearer.

The proposed new line is not just about higher speeds, but is also to provide greater capacity.
By running fast, long distance services on the new line, capacity on the classic route will be freed for local services and freight.
Demand for railfreight is likely to increase as road fuel becomes more expensive, and of course a growing population means more goods to be transported.

[RenewableCandy]

I suspect that we are going to need HS2, partly to cater for population growth.
In London there is an enormous shortage of primary school places, it has been suggested that we need to build a new primary school every day

...in Birmingham.
[Ned Seagoon]Brilliant!!
[/Ned Seagoon]

[biffvernon]

The proposed new line is not just about higher speeds, but is also to provide greater capacity.

Oh no! That's just the excuse that the sillies are now thinking up. If it was about greater capacity rather than high speed the line would be called GG1.

Good to hear that Labour have said they will cancel it if cost increase. So they will cancel it.

Wrong type of railway in the wrong place for the wrong purpose at the wrong price. What we need is some Zing
As I said before, HS2 will never be built.

[Tarrel]

I like the Zing concept.

The capacity arguments for HS2 do seem to make sense, but they are predicated on a future in which we continue to dash around the country treating distances like they don't exist. HS2 would have no place in a relocalised economy with agriculture at its heart. Light rail systems that allow people to move into and within urban centres in order to trade or access services seem to make more sense. I think HS2 would have a place if it could be up and running tomorrow, but its timescale is in excess of 10 years, I think. Will we still be living as we are now in 10-15 years?

[RenewableCandy]

Light rail systems that allow people to move into and within urban centres in order to trade or access services seem to make more sense.

Yup with big seats so you can travel with your basket of produce on your lap, like wot they do in Russia when they're coming back into town from a session in the Dacha garden

You also get people who move along the carriages offering things for sale. We bought a rather good garlic-crusher last time we were there.

[biffvernon]

More reasons why HS2 will never be built:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24589652

[cubes]

Oh look, Norfolk gets screwed... as usual

[SleeperService]

Oh look, Norfolk gets screwed... as usual

True, but so is everybody, everywhere. Where do you think the money is going to come from?? We'll all be paying that bill.

All so rich bustards can live in the country and work in London.

[biffvernon]

The cracks are appearing:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24681907

[woodburner]

The cracks are appearing:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24681907

The Daily Mail reports that householders face a bombardment of cold calls and unwanted post in a new junk mail offensive.

It says Royal Mail is putting barcodes on letters, allowing it to tell firms when their marketing messages have been delivered.

Then sales people can make follow-up phone calls and send text messages. The move represents a significant escalation of the direct marketing business of Royal Mail, the paper adds.

Well the firms would have to know your phone number to be able to call, and Royal Mail can't give it to them, data protection act.

In any event, make sure your phone number is registered with the telephone preference service. Then warn the firms they will be getting invoiced for any further calls, at say £95 per hour, or part of.

[biffvernon]

Government calculations used to justify the £50 billion HS2 scheme were “essentially made up” a former member of Whitehall’s high speed rail advisory panel has told MPs.
Henry Overman, professor of economic geography at the London School of Economics said he had quit the panel after he felt its role had changed from providing independent advice to promoting the project.
“I felt it was not something I wanted to be involved with,” Prof Overman told the Treasury Select Committee.
Academic opponents of the 351-mile line lined up to dispute Government estimates that the scheme would be worth £15 billion a year to the economy with Richard Wellings of the Institute of Economic Affairs saying it would cost every family £3,000.
Prof Overman was withering in his assessment of the project and the way it had been handled by the Government and the work done by KPMG, the consultants brought in by the Department for Transport, to assess HS2’s economic benefit.
“They applied this procedure which is essentially made up” he said.
Prof Overman added: “It’s either something to do with the client or the material which was provided by the client.”
He told MPs that he believed the figure emerged after KPMG were sent back to look at what he described as the “wider, wider” benefits of HS2.
They came back with an answer which seems to me to be way way to large.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... l-MPs.html

[Tarrel]

HS2 'slowly dying’ as Euston terminus plan grinds to halt

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -halt.html

The impasse suggests that HS2 chiefs may have to end the line at Old Oak Common, near Harlesden, four miles west of central London – shattering the route’s city centre to city centre appeal, adding time to journeys and further harming the scheme’s already poor business case. Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, has said he would withdraw his support for HS2 if it ended at Old Oak Common, calling it the “Ryanair solution, stopping in the middle of nowhere.”

In the minutes from the Oct 9 meeting of the Euston “opportunity area planning framework strategic board”, another Network Rail official, Donald Horner, says that building over railway tracks is “very expensive” and asks if the affordable housing element of the plan can be reduced.

HS2 says designating even 20 per cent of the housing – a very low proportion – as affordable makes the development unviable. Camden is demanding more than 20 per cent and potentially as much as 50 per cent affordable housing.