RenewableCandy wrote:Looks as if Fille could do her A Level English project on it!
Yeah, it's serious stuff; industry spares nothing in its greed and can hire the best - though actually 'the best' ends up transparently insincere megabullshit.
Look at the money being thrown against Washington state's GMO labelling initiative, following on from California's farce. $11 million so far from just a handful of contributors.
Bring on the collapse?
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
Although without GM crops we can look forward having to carrying on with reliance on petro-chemical fertilizers & pesticides or, if you prefer, mass starvation.
JavaScriptDonkey wrote:Although without GM crops we can look forward having to carrying on with reliance on petro-chemical fertilizers & pesticides or, if you prefer, mass starvation.
Tough call.
It will be no different with GM crops in that respect. Crops need nutrients, if the inputs are not available, the yields will be low. Some crops need more than others, oil seed rape has a lot of energy stored in the seeds, and is a hungry plant. The only advantage of GM crops is the money they make for the few. For most of us they are an unmitigated disaster.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
All the Monsanto crops are designed for heavy inputs of pesticides (Roundup ready corn and soya for instance) and fertilizer. Take these away and the crops are virtually useless.
There are limited seed varieties available so get a disease that affects that one variety and a large part of your food supply gets killed off. Current agricultural practise uses a wide range of varieties of any particular crop and often, especially in the third world, uses varieties that have been developed in a particular area to suit that area's conditions.
Stop keeping seed from those varieties and use only Monsanto's or Syngenta's seeds and a whole raft of plant genes will be lost to mankind and poor farmers especially will be locked into a cycle of debt to pay for expensive GM seed every year. this cycle is already producing large numbers of suicides in India where GM seeds are failing to give the expected results and are bankrupting the farmers who use them.
In Africa local farmers are having much better results than from GMO by companion planting different species of their current disease and pest vulnerable varieties to produce a mixed planting that protects each other from their individual pests. And not a pesticide or GMO in sight.
We are already seeing governments such as the EU bringing in ridiculous legislation to limit which seeds we can sell and use. Legislation requiring expensive testing of any variety used which suits big business agriculture. Small businesses can't afford the testing of the large numbers of seed varieties which give us an invaluable gene pool to select from in times of stress.
The only people who need GMO's are the employees and shareholders of the likes of Monsanto, Syngenta and Dow. Their livings depend on GMOs while our best interest lies in using as great a variety of crops and species as possible.
So far as I know no one is forcing farmers to use GM seeds. If GM crops require more fertilizers and more pesticides than current varieties then no one will buy them.
The last time that it was claimed on this board that the Govt/EU was trying to limit the sale of non-GM seeds a very brief read of the actual Bill revealed the claim to be baseless.
It sounds like what you most want is legislation to force farmers to use only use seed and practices that you approve of.
Mexico - yield increases with herbicide tolerant soybean of 9 percent.
Romania – yield increases with herbicide tolerant soybeans have averaged 31 percent.
Philippines – average yield increase of 15 percent with herbicide tolerant corn.
Philippines – average yield increase of 24 percent with insect resistant corn.
Hawaii – virus resistant papaya has increased yields by an average of 40 percent.
India – insect resistant cotton has led to yield increases on average more than 50 percent.
So these statements indicate various sprays harmful to life are used. If you think that's ok, do some research into glyphosate, and how it affects the environment.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
woodburner wrote:It is possible to grow crops without chemicals.
From Monsanto's site:
Mexico - yield increases with herbicide tolerant soybean of 9 percent.
Romania – yield increases with herbicide tolerant soybeans have averaged 31 percent.
Philippines – average yield increase of 15 percent with herbicide tolerant corn.
Philippines – average yield increase of 24 percent with insect resistant corn.
Hawaii – virus resistant papaya has increased yields by an average of 40 percent.
India – insect resistant cotton has led to yield increases on average more than 50 percent.
So these statements indicate various sprays harmful to life are used. If you think that's ok, do some research into glyphosate, and how it affects the environment.
Of course it's OK. We are going to eat the crop and that is about as 'harmful to life' as you can get.
You appear to be selective as to what qualifies as life. Herbicides are harmful to life, ask a plant. Insect resistance is obtained by making the plant able to manufacture its own insecticide. Harmful to life. Life is not just human. When the plants are able to destroy insects, there are no larvae. Larvae are eaten by many young birds, therefore there is no food for them,in the end meaning there are no birds.
Great.
Still ok?
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
US and other farmers are now finding that they are having to use more and more pesticides and herbicides as insects and plants develop resistance to those chemicals. Roundup is one of those chemicals.
Ans what about the problems of the limited number of varieties available?
woodburner wrote:It is possible to grow crops without chemicals.
From Monsanto's site:
Mexico - yield increases with herbicide tolerant soybean of 9 percent.
Romania – yield increases with herbicide tolerant soybeans have averaged 31 percent.
Philippines – average yield increase of 15 percent with herbicide tolerant corn.
Philippines – average yield increase of 24 percent with insect resistant corn.
Hawaii – virus resistant papaya has increased yields by an average of 40 percent.
India – insect resistant cotton has led to yield increases on average more than 50 percent.
So these statements indicate various sprays harmful to life are used. If you think that's ok, do some research into glyphosate, and how it affects the environment.
Of course it's OK. We are going to eat the crop and that is about as 'harmful to life' as you can get.
My bold - insect resistant means less pesticide.
No
Insect resistant genetically modified organisms will mean an accelerated arms race between those genetically modified organisms and pests. Given that the pests have forever on their side, they will always win that race. Thus, we will end up in a situation where only way you get to grow something is by going through Monsanto et al because they will have created a situation where the only organisms that will stand a chance of withstanding the super pests that they, themselves, have caused to come into existence, will be their latest version of a genetically modified organism. All of which puts paid to your earlier point about people being free to choose whether or not to climb aboard the GMO train.
Brilliant for Monsanto et al. A disaster for the rest of humanity.
stevecook172001 wrote:......................Thus, we will end up in a situation where only way you get to grow something is by going through Monsanto et al because they will have created a situation where the only organisms that will stand a chance of withstanding the super pests that they, themselves, have caused to come into existence, will be their latest version of a genetically modified organism. All of which puts paid to your earlier point about people being free to choose whether or not to climb aboard the GMO train.
Brilliant for Monsanto et al. A disaster for the rest of humanity.
Especially as the seed companies are conspiring with governments such as the EU to limit the seeds that can be legally bought/sold/shared to those that have been tested by official bodies. The cost of testing means that only large companies can afford this. So farmers and growers freedom to use whatever seed they want in being curtailed to the detriment of the greater population and the environment.
Last edited by kenneal - lagger on 16 Sep 2013, 17:00, edited 1 time in total.
stevecook172001 wrote:......................Thus, we will end up in a situation where only way you get to grow something is by going through Monsanto et al because they will have created a situation where the only organisms that will stand a chance of withstanding the super pests that they, themselves, have caused to come into existence, will be their latest version of a genetically modified organism. All of which puts paid to your earlier point about people being free to choose whether or not to climb aboard the GMO train.
Brilliant for Monsanto et al. A disaster for the rest of humanity.
Especially as the seed companies are conspiring with governments such as the EU to limit the seeds that can be legally bought/sold/shared to those that have been tested by official bodies. the cost of testing means that only large companies can afford this. so farmers and growers freedom to use whatever seed they want in being curtailed to the detriment of the greater population and the environment.
woodburner wrote:You appear to be selective as to what qualifies as life. Herbicides are harmful to life, ask a plant. Insect resistance is obtained by making the plant able to manufacture its own insecticide. Harmful to life. Life is not just human. When the plants are able to destroy insects, there are no larvae. Larvae are eaten by many young birds, therefore there is no food for them,in the end meaning there are no birds.
Great.
Still ok?
DFTT
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
