Syria watch...

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AndySir
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Post by AndySir »

stevecook172001 wrote:In the end, though, it matters little to someone who has been killed by Sarin or by a bullet because, in both cases, they're dead.
An odd argument. Does it matter just as little if they have been hit by a bus or a bullet since, in both cases, they're dead? The intentions of the driver or shooter should perhaps be taken into account when we pass a moral judgement - the mens rea needs to be shown.

In the case of bullets v gas a bullet is targeted, gas kills indiscriminately. If you kill via Sarin you must have intended to kill indiscriminately, which is why it is held as a higher crime. Of course you carpet bomb a suburb in Cairo you probably intended to indiscriminately as well...
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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

stevecook172001 wrote:And I am saying precisely that it matters little the medium of death and destruction save for, perhaps, the extent of suffering involved in the method and also the longer lasting environmental fallout. In the end, though, it matters little to someone who has been killed by Sarin or by a bullet because, in both cases, they're dead. The US has been implicated in the deaths of at least a 100,000 civilians in Afghanistan ad God knows haw many in Iraq. But, since they were all killed by explosives or bullets, that's all right then?

It's bullshit, is what it is.
I really do appreciate this position, however, rightly or wrongly, it's not how the world works. We don't seem to care nearly so much about the 2000 people killed on the roads as much as 76 people killed on a train once a decade. We don't care about the deaths due to malnutrition as much as those from war. We don't care about deaths from conventional arms as much as those from WMD.

The prevailing value system of the world absolutely does not equate deaths irrelevant of cause or motive, arguably, it's all about cause and motive and whether 10, 100 or even 10,000 die is very much a secondary matter.
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AndySir
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Post by AndySir »

Who cares if you're killed by a bullet or a bomb? The guy standing next to you.
Little John

Post by Little John »

clv101 wrote:
stevecook172001 wrote:And I am saying precisely that it matters little the medium of death and destruction save for, perhaps, the extent of suffering involved in the method and also the longer lasting environmental fallout. In the end, though, it matters little to someone who has been killed by Sarin or by a bullet because, in both cases, they're dead. The US has been implicated in the deaths of at least a 100,000 civilians in Afghanistan ad God knows haw many in Iraq. But, since they were all killed by explosives or bullets, that's all right then?

It's bullshit, is what it is.
I really do appreciate this position, however, rightly or wrongly, it's not how the world works. We don't seem to care nearly so much about the 2000 people killed on the roads as much as 76 people killed on a train once a decade. We don't care about the deaths due to malnutrition as much as those from war. We don't care about deaths from conventional arms as much as those from WMD.

The prevailing value system of the world absolutely does not equate deaths irrelevant of cause or motive, arguably, it's all about cause and motive and whether 10, 100 or even 10,000 die is very much a secondary matter.
Whoa, hang on there, I did not say killing was irrelevant of motive or cause. I said, with the qualifications given, killing, in the context of conflict, was irrelevant of method.

It's a sick joke.

...You've been killing people "nicely", so we will continue to give you lot's of shiny new military weapons of war to continue the same, However, we're going to have to make out we're at least slightly upset, if only for a few weeks, just to keep up appearances...


Meanwhile

.....You've not been killing people very nicely at all, so we're going to bomb the shit out of you which will, unfortunately, involve quite a bit of "collateral damage". But, that's okay, cos collateral damage is the "nice" kind of killing, dontcha know..... :wink:

Jesus wept.....
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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

stevecook172001 wrote:Whoa, hang on there, I did not say killing was irrelevant of motive or cause. I said, with the qualifications given, killing, in the context of conflict, was irrelevant of method.
Yes, sorry, thanks for the clarification. I think I do agree with you, but unfortunately even within conflict there seem to be acceptable and unacceptable deaths.

The ethical debates around non-lethal weapons raise some interesting questions. It seem to be acceptable to shoot someone in the head with a bullet, or even drop a bomb on them, but less acceptable to blind them with a laser.

It's clear that the west does consider the use of chemical weapons even though in this case only a few hundred have been killed, to be a very different to thing to the preceding conventional warfare that has killed many tens of thousands. Rational?

Post WWII chemical weapon use does seem to have been very rare. Other than sketchy accounts of the Soviets using them during their war in Afghanistan. Only Saddam Hussain's Iraq used them in a serious way against Iran and the Kurdish Iraqis. During the Iran-Iraq war I guess 'we' were rather rooting for Iraq so the use seems to have been silently condoned. It's the far smaller use in Halabja that seems to be the case the west focuses on.

What happened in Syria last week is exceptional, is unusual so we should expect to see an exceptional response. People often talk up the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq as failed interventions which must never be repeated. However, this situation does seem to have more in common with Bosnia and maybe also but on a smaller scale the British intervention in the Sierra Leone civil war.
Last edited by clv101 on 27 Aug 2013, 16:02, edited 1 time in total.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

stevecook172001 wrote:
biffvernon wrote:I don't think we have made such commitments (yet). And if it comes to human lives then I'd say we shouldn't, but should search for a different approach.
What does "search for a different approach" mean Biff? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that just sounds like well-meaning waffle. A "different approach" could mean the use of cruise missiles fired from submarines and the use of drones to drop weapons from 3 miles up. No need to put boots on the ground then. You in favour of that different approach?
Search for a different approach means just what it says. If we had already found it we would not need to search for it. It does imply that the approach of going to war, whether by sending arms, sending drones, firing cruise missiles or sending troops, is not my favourite option. These approaches, experience reveals, usually end in people getting hurt.

Of course it's a pity we have to start from here. We should not, for instance, have been selling them materials to make chemical weapons from :- http://news.sky.com/story/1116687/brita ... a-revealed and whether or not the details in that report stack up, I have long argued that the UK should never sell arms to anybody, anywhere.

So what should we do? I don't know. Hence the need for a search. We might try air-dropping pomegranates and bowls of petunias to shame them with sillyness. It might work; I don't know; it's never been tried.
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Post by Blue Peter »

clv101 wrote:Post WWII chemical weapon use does seem to have been very rare.
Do napalm and agent orange count as chemical weapons?


Peter.
Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the seconds to hours?
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Post by clv101 »

I wasn't including them in my definition, nor does the Chemical Weapons Convention. Napalm is 'just' sticky fire so it's hard to define a hard line between conventional weapons and napalm. Agent Orange is more tricky though as although it's primary use is as a defoliant - it's also human toxic. I guess the reason it's not typically classified as a chemical weapon is that the toxic effects are longer term and 'collateral', the "nice" kind of killing. :shock:
Little John

Post by Little John »

Blue Peter wrote:
clv101 wrote:Post WWII chemical weapon use does seem to have been very rare.
Do napalm and agent orange count as chemical weapons?


Peter.
No, because we used them. It's all just complete bollocks, of course. Our economic/political elites want another excuse for the furtherance of their strategic goals. This particular little wheeze with "WMD chemical weapons" has been used before and so they are more than willing to blow smoke up our arses with it again if they think they can get away with it. Given the number of liberal buttons the very idea of chemical weapons seems to press (possibly because they are somehow seen as not as "green" or "natural" as good old-fashioned weapons of mass destruction) which then sends said liberals off into a spiral of public hand-wringing and, in so doing, do our elites' propaganda work for them, our elites are probably right, they will get away with it.
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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

stevecook172001 wrote:No, because we used them.
I think there are objective differences between napalm and agent orange and the defined chemical weapon nerve agents and the others. It's not just because we used them - if indeed that has any role in their classification. And of course napalm's use on concentrations of civilians is a war crime.

I don't really think you can pin the dislike for chemical weapons on "liberal hand-wringing". The Chemical Weapons Convention has been signed by 189 countries. These states aren't playing: Angola, Burma, Egypt, Israel, North Korea, South Sudan, Syria.

There is a pretty much a global consensus on the prohibition of the development, production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons.
Little John

Post by Little John »

clv101 wrote:
stevecook172001 wrote:No, because we used them.
I think there are objective differences between napalm and agent orange and the defined chemical weapon nerve agents and the others. It's not just because we used them - if indeed that has any role in their classification. And of course napalm's use on concentrations of civilians is a war crime.

I don't really think you can pin the dislike for chemical weapons on "liberal hand-wringing". The Chemical Weapons Convention has been signed by 189 countries. These states aren't playing: Angola, Burma, Egypt, Israel, North Korea, South Sudan, Syria.

There is a pretty much a global consensus on the prohibition of the development, production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons.
Well let me think about this CLV....

Death by sticky fire, or death by gas

choice choices....

I suppose if I were to die by sticky fire, I could take consolation by the fact that this particular tool of killing is not classified a banned weapon. Oh yes, indeed, that would be a great comfort. I can see that now.
Last edited by Little John on 27 Aug 2013, 18:15, edited 2 times in total.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

I think some of the (pretty warped) thinking is that with chemical weapons the soldier letting them off has absolutely no control over whether the victim is an arms bearing enemy soldier or a small child. The other weapons have, to greater or lesser degrees, an element of point at target and shoot.

Anyway, Tony Blair has backed a military strike on the Syrian regime so that proves its a bad idea.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... emism.html
Little John

Post by Little John »

biffvernon wrote:I think some of the (pretty warped) thinking is that with chemical weapons the soldier letting them off has absolutely no control over whether the victim is an arms bearing enemy soldier or a small child. The other weapons have, to greater or lesser degrees, an element of point at target and shoot.

Anyway, Tony Blair has backed a military strike on the Syrian regime so that proves its a bad idea.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... emism.html
Oh yeah, drone planes, 3 miles up, have been demonstrated to have unerring pinpoint accuracy haven't they.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

They count as my 'lesser degrees'.
Little John

Post by Little John »

biffvernon wrote:They count as my 'lesser degrees'.
In precisely what way is the killing of potentially hundreds by an indiscriminate rain of death from the sky via the pushing of a button by an anonymous man with a shirt and tie in an office on the other side of the planet a lesser degree of killing than death by gas?
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