The Egyptian military has saved Egypt...

[clv101]

I have this urge to go and live with biff, just arrive or maybe start living in the garden and gradually expand, just me at the start but gradually become a throng then a horde

So many things you would like to do in life but you never have the time

Remember biffvernon only ever said anything about national borders - not property rights. His argument is that anyone in the world should be able to live in the UK (by buying or renting a property in the usual way). He's certainly not suggesting anyone can come an live in anyone's garden against their wishes!

[Little John]

I have this urge to go and live with biff, just arrive or maybe start living in the garden and gradually expand, just me at the start but gradually become a throng then a horde

So many things you would like to do in life but you never have the time

Remember biffvernon only ever said anything about national borders - not property rights. His argument is that anyone in the world should be able to live in the UK (by buying or renting a property in the usual way). He's certainly not suggesting anyone can come an live in anyone's garden against their wishes!

ah...right...

So, biff is in favour of the individual property rights of this country because he is an individual, he owns property and so he quite naturally gives a shit about protecting his ownership rights.

On the other hand, biff is not at all concerned with the communal property rights of this country because he does not consider them to be of sufficient importance to him as an individual (probably because he's well sorted on the individual property front, I am guessing) and so he doesn’t give a shit about protecting those rights at all.

Furthermore, he considers, and has amply implied on many occasions on this forum, that anyone who does express a concern for protecting communal property rights in this country is a racist. All of which has had the cultural effect of leaving largely only the racists as being the ones who are preprepared to stand up for those communal property rights and hypocritical liberals like Biff are directly responsible for this insanity.

[biffvernon]

There they go again, the strawman builders. If only they could read what folk actually wrote.

[Little John]

There they go again, the strawman builders. If only they could read what folk actually wrote.

1. Define individual property rights

2. Define communal property rights

3. Do you believe in the protection of individual property rights by force, if necessary?

4. Do you believe in the protection of communal property rights by force, if necessary?

It seems pretty clear you are just essentially a selfish person biff. You are more than happy for the state's resources to be called upon to protect what you directly own. but when it comes to what is owned by everyone else in common, you couldn't give as toss. Unless, of course, those commons conform to your cosy ecological rose tinted ideals. In which case, you are more than happy to get all hot under the collar about them.

In other words, when those commons are important to urban, poor people, it's then that your interest seems to wane somewhat.....

Funny that

[UndercoverElephant]

I have this urge to go and live with biff, just arrive or maybe start living in the garden and gradually expand, just me at the start but gradually become a throng then a horde.

That would be very interesting.

Biff, meet Reality. Reality, this is Biff Vernon...

[UndercoverElephant]

I have this urge to go and live with biff, just arrive or maybe start living in the garden and gradually expand, just me at the start but gradually become a throng then a horde

So many things you would like to do in life but you never have the time

Remember biffvernon only ever said anything about national borders - not property rights. His argument is that anyone in the world should be able to live in the UK (by buying or renting a property in the usual way). He's certainly not suggesting anyone can come an live in anyone's garden against their wishes!

Unfortunately this just makes his position even more untenable, because the reason he advocates no national borders is because he is fairly confident that nobody would want to come and live near him in what is apparently a rather remote part of Lincolnshire. He's effectively advocating that they go to live in other parts of the UK...you know - the ones that are already seriously overpopulated from an ecological point of view.

[UndercoverElephant]

I have this urge to go and live with biff, just arrive or maybe start living in the garden and gradually expand, just me at the start but gradually become a throng then a horde

So many things you would like to do in life but you never have the time

Remember biffvernon only ever said anything about national borders - not property rights. His argument is that anyone in the world should be able to live in the UK (by buying or renting a property in the usual way). He's certainly not suggesting anyone can come an live in anyone's garden against their wishes!

ah...right...

So, biff is in favour of the individual property rights of this country because he is an individual, he owns property and so he quite naturally gives a shit about protecting his ownership rights.

On the other hand, biff is not at all concerned with the communal property rights of this country because he does not consider them to be of sufficient importance to him as an individual (probably because he's well sorted on the individual property front, I am guessing) and so he doesn’t give a shit about protecting those rights at all.

Furthermore, he considers, and has amply implied on many occasions on this forum, that anyone who does express a concern for protecting communal property rights in this country is a racist. All of which has had the cultural effect of leaving largely only the racists as being the ones who are preprepared to stand up for those communal property rights and hypocritical liberals like Biff are directly responsible for this insanity.

Spot on.

[UndercoverElephant]

There they go again, the strawman builders. If only they could read what folk actually wrote.

We read what you right, Biff. We read it, understand it and respond to it accordingly. The people you are dealing with here are not stupid, and with one obvious exception, not right wing either. The criticisms we are making of your position are the only reasonable response to a load of well-meant, but poorly-thought-out and hypocritical nonsense. I'm sorry if this post is offensive, but you really do ask for it. Stop posting the hypocritical nonsense and we will stop attacking it.

I've tried to explain this to you before, but you did not understand. You seem to think your views are some sort of antidote to the Jonny2Mad's of this world. They are not. They are in fact a justification for Jonny2Mad's views. So long as there are "liberals" like yourself expressing beliefs like these, then there is a justification for people like Jonny2Mad to express the antidote to the Biffnonsense. Jonny's views may be unpleasant, but they are grounded in reality in a way that yours are NOT. And as everybody who posts on this site ought to know very well, if you pick a fight with reality then you are guaranteed to lose, eventually.

[clv101]

I have this urge to go and live with biff, just arrive or maybe start living in the garden and gradually expand, just me at the start but gradually become a throng then a horde

So many things you would like to do in life but you never have the time

Remember biffvernon only ever said anything about national borders - not property rights. His argument is that anyone in the world should be able to live in the UK (by buying or renting a property in the usual way). He's certainly not suggesting anyone can come an live in anyone's garden against their wishes!

Unfortunately this just makes his position even more untenable, because the reason he advocates no national borders is because he is fairly confident that nobody would want to come and live near him in what is apparently a rather remote part of Lincolnshire. He's effectively advocating that they go to live in other parts of the UK...you know - the ones that are already seriously overpopulated from an ecological point of view.

I don't agree with this. It isn't about where people want to live - it's where people can live. His part of rural Lincolnshire doesn't have very many houses, or jobs etc. so it's hard to see how lots of additional people could move there. I think he's simply saying anyone in the world should be able to buy (or rent) a house on his street, or yours, irrelevant of whether they have a British or EU passport. They would of course have to be able to afford the house/rent which likely means also finding employment.

The point Steve makes about commons is far more problematic - there are many aspects of the UK that are finite, owned in common and benefit all the people who live here. Allowing anyone from around the world to live here would - assuming total population increased - reduces the existing population's benefit.

Key questions remain about whether population would actually increase much? It should also be obvious that 'no boarders' is an aspirational concept - not a serious policy suggestion to be implemented unilaterally in the UK next week. There would have to be a degree of reciprocity.

[biffvernon]

We read what you right, Biff. We read it, understand it

The trouble is that it appears that you don't read and understand what I right or even write. You tell me that I have certain views and yet I know that this is all quite wrong. I must just be very bad at explaining things. There have been a long list of factual errors in the last few posts - just about every assertion that you guys have made about what I think is 180 degrees wrong.

[UndercoverElephant]

Remember biffvernon only ever said anything about national borders - not property rights. His argument is that anyone in the world should be able to live in the UK (by buying or renting a property in the usual way). He's certainly not suggesting anyone can come an live in anyone's garden against their wishes!

Unfortunately this just makes his position even more untenable, because the reason he advocates no national borders is because he is fairly confident that nobody would want to come and live near him in what is apparently a rather remote part of Lincolnshire. He's effectively advocating that they go to live in other parts of the UK...you know - the ones that are already seriously overpopulated from an ecological point of view.

I don't agree with this. It isn't about where people want to live - it's where people can live. His part of rural Lincolnshire doesn't have very many houses, or jobs etc. so it's hard to see how lots of additional people could move there.

If the problem is lack of houses then more can be built. Or people can live in mobile homes.

And if the problem is jobs...well, there's no jobs in many parts of the UK which are already seriously overpopulated. The economy of much of the industrial north, for example, is now almost completely dependent (directly plus indirectly) on government money. And if that is the case in somewhere like Sheffield, then why not rural Lincolnshire?

I think he's simply saying anyone in the world should be able to buy (or rent) a house on his street, or yours, irrelevant of whether they have a British or EU passport. They would of course have to be able to afford the house/rent which likely means also finding employment.

Erm...so rich people from another culture should be allowed to move to the UK, but people who are actually from the UK, but poor, have no such rights???

The point Steve makes about commons is far more problematic - there are many aspects of the UK that are finite, owned in common and benefit all the people who live here. Allowing anyone from around the world to live here would - assuming total population increased - reduces the existing population's benefit.

Exactly. Which Biff does not care about because "Biff's alright, Jack." He talks life a liberal leftie, but his underlying attitude is that of a selfish, right-wing Tory. Which is why he is being repeatedly accused of hypocrisy.

Key questions remain about whether population would actually increase much? It should also be obvious that 'no boarders' is an aspirational concept - not a serious policy suggestion to be implemented unilaterally in the UK next week. There would have to be a degree of reciprocity.

Reciprocity? Like we say "It is OK for limitless amounts of people from f*ck*d up, hopeless, backward hell-holes to come and live in the UK, if they want to, provided it is OK for limitless amounts of British people to go and live in f*ck*d up, hopeless, backward hell-holes, if they want to..."

I can see a problem with this plan.

[UndercoverElephant]

I must just be very bad at explaining things. There have been a long list of factual errors in the last few posts - just about every assertion that you guys have made about what I think is 180 degrees wrong.

Then provide some detailed responses to them, not just a blanket denial or contentless (non-)rebuttal.

[clv101]

This is all getting a bit silly, but I'll try and answer line by line.

Unfortunately this just makes his position even more untenable, because the reason he advocates no national borders is because he is fairly confident that nobody would want to come and live near him in what is apparently a rather remote part of Lincolnshire. He's effectively advocating that they go to live in other parts of the UK...you know - the ones that are already seriously overpopulated from an ecological point of view.

I don't agree with this. It isn't about where people want to live - it's where people can live. His part of rural Lincolnshire doesn't have very many houses, or jobs etc. so it's hard to see how lots of additional people could move there.

If the problem is lack of houses then more can be built. Or people can live in mobile homes.

Yes - houses can be built or people can live in mobile homes - but only within the existing planning laws. 'No borders' certainly doesn't say you can build a house outside the existing development plan or park up a caravan on the road side. No borders is only about allowing freedom of movement - not changing half the other laws of the land!

And if the problem is jobs...well, there's no jobs in many parts of the UK which are already seriously overpopulated. The economy of much of the industrial north, for example, is now almost completely dependent (directly plus indirectly) on government money. And if that is the case in somewhere like Sheffield, then why not rural Lincolnshire?

Which is why I doubt many folks would move to the industrial north (or rural Lincolnshire) - 'no borders' certainly doesn't negate the need to pay one's way.

I think he's simply saying anyone in the world should be able to buy (or rent) a house on his street, or yours, irrelevant of whether they have a British or EU passport. They would of course have to be able to afford the house/rent which likely means also finding employment.

Erm...so rich people from another culture should be allowed to move to the UK, but people who are actually from the UK, but poor, have no such rights???

Yes! The same way rich folk from London can buy a farm in Northumbria. Or the German industrialist can buy a villa in Greece. We have 'no borders' within the UK, we also have 'no borders' within most of the EU. biffvernon is only suggesting we could extend this beyond the EU to cover the whole world.

Key questions remain about whether population would actually increase much? It should also be obvious that 'no borders' is an aspirational concept - not a serious policy suggestion to be implemented unilaterally in the UK next week. There would have to be a degree of reciprocity.

Reciprocity? Like we say "It is OK for limitless amounts of people from f*ck*d up, hopeless, backward hell-holes to come and live in the UK, if they want to, provided it is OK for limitless amounts of British people to go and live in f*ck*d up, hopeless, backward hell-holes, if they want to..."

I can see a problem with this plan.

This is a strawman of your creation. It's nothing to do with if they want to live in the UK. Remember 'no borders' is about the abolition of national borders, not about some guy in Mali with $3 to his name moving to a 3 bed semi in Brighton! At the moment, I am perfectly able to move anywhere in the EU (assuming I can afford the house...) I can't however, move similarly to Keyna, Japan, Russia, Australia, Mali, Indonesia, Canada or Senegal.

[woodburner]

It appears Steve and UE have been in close contact, as they appear to be suffering from the same affliction, resulting in intolerance of anything that doesn't suit their point of view. Maybe they should try a trial separation.

[UndercoverElephant]

It appears Steve and UE have been in close contact, as they appear to be suffering from the same affliction, resulting in intolerance of anything that doesn't suit their point of view. Maybe they should try a trial separation.

If you've got a point, rather than just personal abuse, please post it. Both Steve and myself have made detailed rebuttals of Biff's position - we have explained exactly what we believe to be wrong with what he has posted. Your post above, in sharp contrast, is cheerleading - or rather it is "negative cheerleading." It is entirely contentless, and is consists entirely of having a personal dig at two other posters.

Sadly, this is what I have come to expect from you. Not all of your posts are negative and contentless in this manner, but quite a lot of them are.