Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands

[Blue Peter]

The best solution would be a completely segregated road network for cyclists - at least in the cities.

Come live in Milton Keynes, then! Though, even so, I do find a few things to moan about


Peter.

[RenewableCandy]

I too tend to avoid the painted-on type of cycle lane, because so many of them have cars parked to their left (for continental and Usonian types, read "right"), whose doors may fly open any second to disgourge the careless and lethal eejit within. No bloody thank you!

On the other hand, I used to live in Stevenage. It has a specializt, award-winning network of offroad cycle-paths which sort-of forms the "dual" of the network of roads. Did I get on my bike and use it? NO!! Why not? 1. I didn't have a bike and had no idea where to get one. 2. I didn't consider myself "sporty" enough to ride, and yet 3. I found walking on this network (there was no choicei n this, as Stevenage's roads have no pavements) a rather unpleasant and disturbing experience, because so much of it passed under the roads (and everything else, like all the landmarks you might use to help avoid getting lost). I was simply too young, and the wrong sex, to be a regular user of underpasses.

[Blue Peter]

I was simply too young, and the wrong sex, to be a regular user of underpasses.

I don't know whether there are reasons against it, but it would have been better to have the cars go down and people go up on bridges. I suspect that it is a lot easier to maintain pedestrian and cycle bridges than it is to maintain road ones (as MK and presumably Stevanage will find out in the coming years),


Peter.

[RenewableCandy]

Good point. But "cars" also include lorries, buses and the like, which would make the pedestrian/cyclist bridges unappetisingly high, and people would simply jaywalk. I know I do!

[JohnB]

Bracknell had quite a good network (no idea what it's like now), partly thanks to a late friend who was the local Friends of the Earth Cycle Campaigner. It had parts where there was a "road" for bikes, with a footpath with a raised curb for pedestrians. So where did the bloody pedestrians walk? .

And cycle/pedestrian bridges can be bloody scary for people who don't do heights.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Cyclists got there first. Motorists are the Johnny-come-latelies.

Safety bicycle invented 1876.
Petrol engine motorcar invented 1886.

Not a lot in that but as we're on it the steam engine motor carriage was at least as early as 1801.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

I get in the centre of the left hand half of a given lane and stay there till I am ready to pull off. If car can get past, that great, if they can't that's tough. The thing is, they know where they are with such an arrangement and, also, if they decide to cut me up, I have plenty of lane to my left to retreat into if necessary. I completely ignore cycle lanes.

The best solution would be a completely segregated road network for cyclists - at least in the cities.

Painted cycle lanes are indeed stupid but I have to point out that if you weren't blocking the lane you probably wouldn't get cut up. I'm not justifying either action - just telling you what you already know.

A road is shared space for all users and I think what drives most people to stupidity is thinking that someone else is not playing by the rules.

Driving an older car with drum brakes I usually take downhill stretches of narrow roads slowly to allow for time to stop. Increasingly I pick up a bunch of cyclists immediately behind me you can't over take but seem incapable of just puling over and waiting for me to complete the section.

No idea why they get annoyed as it is often cyclists puffing their way up the hill (head down and eyes blinded by sweat) that I am most concerned about.

[Little John]

I get in the centre of the left hand half of a given lane and stay there till I am ready to pull off. If car can get past, that great, if they can't that's tough. The thing is, they know where they are with such an arrangement and, also, if they decide to cut me up, I have plenty of lane to my left to retreat into if necessary. I completely ignore cycle lanes.

The best solution would be a completely segregated road network for cyclists - at least in the cities.

Painted cycle lanes are indeed stupid but I have to point out that if you weren't blocking the lane you probably wouldn't get cut up. I'm not justifying either action - just telling you what you already know.

A road is shared space for all users and I think what drives most people to stupidity is thinking that someone else is not playing by the rules.

Driving an older car with drum brakes I usually take downhill stretches of narrow roads slowly to allow for time to stop. Increasingly I pick up a bunch of cyclists immediately behind me you can't over take but seem incapable of just puling over and waiting for me to complete the section.

No idea why they get annoyed as it is often cyclists puffing their way up the hill (head down and eyes blinded by sweat) that I am most concerned about.

Sorry JSD, but that's not my experience. I am, as I would hope you might guess, an extremely fair user of the public highways. That is to say, I do not consider myself to have any more right of way than any other user; be they on two wheels or four, be they human powered or powered by an internal combustion engine or any other form of assisted locomotion. I simply consider myself to have as much right of way as anyone else.

All of the above being the case, it is also my experience that car users are no more or less likely to be morons or selfish than cyclists. That being so, because there are simply many more users of cars on the road than any other kind of user and because the consequences of a collision between myself, on a bike, and a car user is likely to be personally catastrophic for me as opposed to merely somewhat financially costly for the car user, I make absolutely sure I have escape room in the event of being cut-up by a car. The occurrence of which, I am bound to tell you, is little effected, in my experience, by whether I ride right up to the kerb or a couple of feet out from it. The consequences of which, however, would be significantly effected by my capacity (or lack of) to ride my bike out of danger in the event I may be forced to try and avoid a collision.

Lets just, for the sake of argument though, assume that the chance I may be cut-up rises slightly because I choose to ride further away from the kerb. This is more than compensated for by the fact of my being able to ride into that spare couple of feet. A couple of feet that would not be present if I was riding right up to the kerb. Thus, it is of little comfort to know that I am likely to be cut-up only twice a day when riding the kerb as opposed to four times a day when holding a safer share of the road. However, as I've already said, I've personally detected no discernible difference in the probability of begin cut-up riding the kerb or not. Thus, I have absolutely no incentive for doing so.

Cyclists have no more right to be on the road than you JSD. They also have no less right. If you don't like that and you find their presence irritating because it adds some small measure of time to your journey that you might otherwise avoid, that's just tough.

[cubes]

How odd.

Most drivers I know complain about cyclists getting in the way and constantly weaving across the road on machines ill-suited to the conditions.*

I suppose that because the motorists have passed a test to prove they can be safe and have to ensure their vehicles are roadworthy and insured that they think they are somehow entitled and even qualified to judge the behaviour of cyclists.

(*Mostly lycra clad leisure cyclists racing in packs who infest the roads down my neck of the woods.)

Many uninsured cars on the road and driving standards can be pretty crap as I'm sure you've noticed yourself. I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the non-existent "road tax" too.

[clv101]

It's also the case that most cyclists also hold a driving license (and pay their vehicle excise duty) so are fully aware of the rules of the road.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Cyclists have no more right to be on the road than you JSD. They also have no less right. If you don't like that and you find their presence irritating because it adds some small measure of time to your journey that you might otherwise avoid, that's just tough.

Some small measure? You have no idea. I've seen queues of 20 or so cars and buses tailing back behind hill climbing cyclists on narrow roads.

We all have to abide by the rules in the shared spaces and the one I hold most dear is 'get out of other people's way'.

Re-phrased more politely in THC,

168

Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.

169

Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Many uninsured cars on the road and driving standards can be pretty crap as I'm sure you've noticed yourself. I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the non-existent "road tax" too.

A very real problem effectively tackled by the imposition of registration plates on vehicles, Police seizure powers and driving bans.

Law abiding cyclists will always ride considerately as will law abiding motorists. What needs dealing with are those who drive/ride badly.

Let's start with compulsory training shall we?

[JavaScriptDonkey]

It's also the case that most cyclists also hold a driving license (and pay their vehicle excise duty) so are fully aware of the rules of the road.

They may also be fully aware of the rules as they relate to high power motorbikes and HGVs but they can't drive them until they pass the appropriate test and then they still have to tax and insure them.

Why should cycles be any different?

[Little John]

Cyclists have no more right to be on the road than you JSD. They also have no less right. If you don't like that and you find their presence irritating because it adds some small measure of time to your journey that you might otherwise avoid, that's just tough.

Some small measure? You have no idea. I've seen queues of 20 or so cars and buses tailing back behind hill climbing cyclists on narrow roads.

We all have to abide by the rules in the shared spaces and the one I hold most dear is 'get out of other people's way'.

Re-phrased more politely in THC,

168

Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.

169

Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.

I already comply with 168. However, in anticipation of you, I would make the point that the term "never obstruct" cannot mean, as you seem to be implying, that I should deliberately ride in such a manner as to significantly increase danger to myself.

I already comply with 169. That is to say, if I am causing a queue to form, as soon as it is safe for me to do so, I will pull over and allow the traffic to pass. However, also in anticipation of you, pulling over to allow a formed queue to pass and disperse does not mean that a cyclist should be expected to be spending more time pulled off the road than they are riding on it.

If, on the other hand, you are suggesting that some cyclists ride erratically/selfishly or do not pull over when it is safe to do so to allow a formed queue to pass and disperse, then yes, of course, some cyclists are morons/selfish.

That'll be just like car users then. The difference being that cyclists are vanishingly small in number, as road users, compared to car users. But, then, if cyclist were more significant in number, the problem of congestion would be diminished in any event since the biggest congestion of the highways currently is caused by cars, as I'm sure you will concede.

[biffvernon]

Cyclists and motorists are not equal.

Motorists are more likely to cause fatal injuries.
Motorists are more likely to cause global warming.

They should not be treated equally.