Clinging on to a middle class lifestyle...

[JavaScriptDonkey]

The definition of requiring that the upper class own the primary means of production didn't really mean much when it was postulated by the early Socialists and it means a lot less now. It functioned to breed envy in the masses and so hasten revolution.

Wide spread participation in share-ownership through pensions and savings along with the removal of the ownership of large companies from the hands of one or two individuals makes the definition thin at best.

Can you honestly say that we even still have a primary means of production? Isn't it mostly outsourced to China?

What you are really alluding to is wealth and with that there are as ever 3 definitions - those with more than me, those with less than me and those with about the same.

[Lord Beria3]

A few observations to make.

Being middle class is surely about having a degree of financial security and 'comfortability' which means that you are not continually reliant on the next pay cheque. In other words, you could decide not to work for six months and do it (even if you rely on your savings and investments).

The 'working classes' would not be able to do this... they would be on the dole or on the street within weeks. Of course, if a 'middle class' family/individual can't cope financially with not working for a few months, I would argue that they are not really 'middle class'.

Greer has commentated that in the future of Scarcity Industrialism, the pool of well paid, secure and professional jobs will shrink and thus the economic base of the middle class will correspondingly shrink.

I would argue that this has already been happening for the last decade. Many younger people whose parents had good professional careers struggle to get a permanent job these days and often have part time and relatively low paid jobs.

As a number here have already noted, without a well paid job, it is pretty much impossible to ever get on the housing ladder. Some may say that this is a wrong obsession but this clashes slightly with the popular talk here of retreating to some land and growing your own food. Presumably you will need a modest property which you own alongside the land. Without a good career it is very difficult to afford the land, let alone a property!

Throw in inflationary driven increases in the cost of food and other basics in the coming decades, you can see the contradiction. To become a future yeoman, which is basically what people here want to become, you need money and assets.

So to get that nice arable land, a modest cottage in the country or in the town which you have paid of the mortgage, you need a substantial pot of money and a reliable and decent income stream for a good couple of decades. As the pool of 'middle class' jobs shrink, this dream will become ever more remote for more and more.

It is still doable, I would argue, but only if you give up the energy-intensive trappings of the modern and mainstream 'middle class' lifestyle of the masses; the expensive car, the foreign holiday etc.

[JohnB]

Wide spread participation in share-ownership through pensions and savings along with the removal of the ownership of large companies from the hands of one or two individuals makes the definition thin at best.

Ordinary people may indirectly own shares through their pensions and savings, but that doesn't mean they have any say over the running of the company. That's in the hands of the pension companies and banks, who will vote in favour of the actions that make the most money. So the power is still in the hands of a minority.

[RenewableCandy]

Quite so. Ownership of shares via a pension fund is such a diluted form of ownership it hardly counts at all. Especially when you consider the number of middle-beings who could, at any given moment, run off with the loot a la Maxwell/Equitable-Life, Madoff etc.

A pension does not a middle-class person make. Parents with outright ownership of a house is a better measure.

[woodburner]

A few observations to make.

Being middle class is surely about having a degree of financial security and 'comfortability' which means that you are not continually reliant on the next pay cheque. In other words, you could decide not to work for six months and do it (even if you rely on your savings and investments).

The 'working classes' would not be able to do this... they would be on the dole or on the street within weeks. Of course, if a 'middle class' family/individual can't cope financially with not working for a few months, I would argue that they are not really 'middle class'.

Greer has commentated that in the future of Scarcity Industrialism, the pool of well paid, secure and professional jobs will shrink and thus the economic base of the middle class will correspondingly shrink.

I would argue that this has already been happening for the last decade. Many younger people whose parents had good professional careers struggle to get a permanent job these days and often have part time and relatively low paid jobs.

As a number here have already noted, without a well paid job, it is pretty much impossible to ever get on the housing ladder. Some may say that this is a wrong obsession but this clashes slightly with the popular talk here of retreating to some land and growing your own food. Presumably you will need a modest property which you own alongside the land. Without a good career it is very difficult to afford the land, let alone a property!

Throw in inflationary driven increases in the cost of food and other basics in the coming decades, you can see the contradiction. To become a future yeoman, which is basically what people here want to become, you need money and assets.

So to get that nice arable land, a modest cottage in the country or in the town which you have paid of the mortgage, you need a substantial pot of money and a reliable and decent income stream for a good couple of decades. As the pool of 'middle class' jobs shrink, this dream will become ever more remote for more and more.

It is still doable, I would argue, but only if you give up the energy-intensive trappings of the modern and mainstream 'middle class' lifestyle of the masses; the expensive car, the foreign holiday etc.

Self delusion does not make someone middle class. Being able to not work for six months does not make someone middle class. Having a field and a horse does not make someone middle class. Owning a house does not make someone middle class.

[kenneal - lagger]

I don't give a damn what class someone thinks someone else is. There are three classes of people in my life; those I like (most people); those I don't like (only a few there) and those who I would rather not meet. I think that's all that matters in life really.

[vtsnowedin]

[Self delusion does not make someone middle class. Being able to not work for six months does not make someone middle class. Having a field and a horse does not make someone middle class. Owning a house does not make someone middle class.

So!! What is your better definition??

[woodburner]

I agree with KL's definition. Why do people care about classes unless it's something to do with vanity? "I am Middle Class" because they don't want to be thought of as an oily rag, and they haven't got so much money or social position to be thought of as upper class.

No chance of being in an "upper class" unless you have several previous generations there, and they have established their position, most of whom did it by inflicting violence on anyone around them.

[biffvernon]

I don't give a damn what class someone thinks someone else is. There are three classes of people in my life; those I like (most people); those I don't like (only a few there) and those who I would rather not meet. I think that's all that matters in life really.

Hey that's my idea!

I prefer to divide people into three sets:

those I like
those I don't like
the rest.

Of course pigeon-holing 60 million people into three sets is bound to be problematic. You need 60 million pigeon holes to do the description accurately.

[featherstick]

We are middle class. I work in a desk-bound knowledge-based job in London and rely on my allotment and volunteering to give me the psychic energy and lift to get through the working week. We are scraping together the funds to afford a week's self-catering holiday in the UK.

My builder is working class. He uses a wide range of cognitive skills and tacit knowledge to find bespoke solutions for his clients and derives a large amount of satisfaction from his work. He took a three week holiday in the Seychelles this year.

[JohnB]

Quite so. Ownership of shares via a pension fund is such a diluted form of ownership it hardly counts at all. Especially when you consider the number of middle-beings who could, at any given moment, run off with the loot a la Maxwell/Equitable-Life, Madoff etc.

A pension does not a middle-class person make. Parents with outright ownership of a house is a better measure.

Interesting bit on the Today programme this morning about Barclays, and their 3% holding of real money, and 97% imaginary money, and how they are bigger than the GDP of the UK, so if they collapse we couldn't rescue them. There are only about 30 UK companies big enough for pension funds to seriously invest in .

[biffvernon]

We are middle class. I work in a desk-bound knowledge-based job in London and rely on my allotment and volunteering to give me the psychic energy and lift to get through the working week. We are scraping together the funds to afford a week's self-catering holiday in the UK.

My builder is working class. He uses a wide range of cognitive skills and tacit knowledge to find bespoke solutions for his clients and derives a large amount of satisfaction from his work. He took a three week holiday in the Seychelles this year.

And what books do you both take on holiday?

[/stereotyping]

[Little John]

We are middle class. I work in a desk-bound knowledge-based job in London and rely on my allotment and volunteering to give me the psychic energy and lift to get through the working week. We are scraping together the funds to afford a week's self-catering holiday in the UK.

My builder is working class. He uses a wide range of cognitive skills and tacit knowledge to find bespoke solutions for his clients and derives a large amount of satisfaction from his work. He took a three week holiday in the Seychelles this year.

good one.

[emordnilap]

A few observations to make.

Being middle class is surely about having a degree of financial security and 'comfortability' which means that you are not continually reliant on the next pay cheque. In other words, you could decide not to work for six months and do it (even if you rely on your savings and investments).

OK, OK, so I'm working class. But others are pretty much in the same boat and I'd class them in the middle class; just goes to show how labels are pretty damned useless.

[Lord Beria3]

I don't give a damn what class someone thinks someone else is. There are three classes of people in my life; those I like (most people); those I don't like (only a few there) and those who I would rather not meet. I think that's all that matters in life really.

That mentality is a luxury of the late Abundant Industrialism era.

I can assure that class has been a very strong reality of British people throughout our history (and a key marker of life chances, quality of living and life expectancy) and not something to be shrugged like you have just done.

As resources becoming scarce again and the widespread affluence of the second half of the 20th century starts to slip away in the coming decades, the brutal realities of the class struggle will come back into fore.