Is the bank the best place to leave your money?
Moderator: Peak Moderation
Regarding farmland I'm not so sure thats a good investment. If things get that bad the government via the local authority will take it from you. Probably fast too ie today we are taking your land, many thanks bye, that fast! Secondly as you will not be living on the land who is going to gaurd any animals or crops from other people. Yes it is great to have some land for wood, but again ?20k gets you a lot of wood. Then if you use the land to store wood and maybe sell some, you dont want that burnt down by the bad elements in our society. Given the choice would I rather have land to use than none, well I'd prefer land but I dont agree that it is an easy clear cut investment - I'd say its high risk, but can be good if you can keep people out and the government out! Ways I would do that would be by using the community ie a gang of you running it for mutual gain so that the government can go "oh look at all them working togther in this time of crisis" and put it on the news ie you get less but at least you get to keep it
-
SILVERHARP2
- Posts: 611
- Joined: 14 Feb 2006, 17:02
- Location: DUBLIN
you both make good sense about land, from an economic point of view I see that large mechanised farms will be in trouble in the years ahead. The move will be back to smaller farms so I doubt the gov. will be trying to take your land. Wait until the banks start reposessing and buy on the cheap, in reality even a couple of acres would be enough to feed a (vegetarian) family, anything above that is a bonus.
A river bank might be a good place to invest your money.
Micro-hydroelectric will be popular in days to come.
Micro-hydroelectric will be popular in days to come.
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth.
Two acres is enough to feed a vegetarian family as long as you are very good a growing things and then, far more importantly, very good at preserving and storing things, neither of which, as I have found out this year, are very easy!
I have had quite a few conversations with an old farmer from round here who as explained to me how farms used to (i.e only 40 years ago) work round here. There were small holdings (up to about an acre) larger holdings (up to 10 acres) and then farms (which were typically 200 or so acres). People who had small holdings had to go to work as farming alone did not give you a living, despite the fact that the land did not carry debt with it.
The more and more I think about it, the more I doubt whether folks will become self sufficient (and lets face it we need excess in order to be able to trade and live) on tiny plots of land.
Most things which grow easily and are cultivated on a small scale have a very short growing season and don't contain many calories. If you want to farm a small piece of land even to be self sufficient you will have to grow mainly grains, potatoes and beans - from a staying alive point of view that is.
Its a nice fantasy
but I don't think a reality.
Also I've been thinking of the whole veggie thing. In the past we used to eat meat, especially in the winter (when things aren't growing!). Apart from any other advantage, meat on the hoof maintains itself (as long as there is enough food); it doesn't need preserving or special storage.
As always, balance is key. Trouble is, where's the balance?
I have had quite a few conversations with an old farmer from round here who as explained to me how farms used to (i.e only 40 years ago) work round here. There were small holdings (up to about an acre) larger holdings (up to 10 acres) and then farms (which were typically 200 or so acres). People who had small holdings had to go to work as farming alone did not give you a living, despite the fact that the land did not carry debt with it.
The more and more I think about it, the more I doubt whether folks will become self sufficient (and lets face it we need excess in order to be able to trade and live) on tiny plots of land.
Most things which grow easily and are cultivated on a small scale have a very short growing season and don't contain many calories. If you want to farm a small piece of land even to be self sufficient you will have to grow mainly grains, potatoes and beans - from a staying alive point of view that is.
Its a nice fantasy
but I don't think a reality.Also I've been thinking of the whole veggie thing. In the past we used to eat meat, especially in the winter (when things aren't growing!). Apart from any other advantage, meat on the hoof maintains itself (as long as there is enough food); it doesn't need preserving or special storage.
As always, balance is key. Trouble is, where's the balance?
Believers and followers of the current system, lovers of government and government backed "truth" might like to argue against these thoughts
http://www.rense.com/general23/gold.htm
People, on the other hand, who believe that peak oil is not a conspiracy theory but a simple fact of cause and effect may not be able to argue against the logic?
Sick Joke (made up by me, a woman, so it's bound to be crap
)
What's the difference between communism and capitalism?
The average joe under communism works for the state because he believes what the state says and knows its for his own good while the average joe under capitalism works for the state but believes he's working for himself and therefore his own good.
http://www.rense.com/general23/gold.htm
People, on the other hand, who believe that peak oil is not a conspiracy theory but a simple fact of cause and effect may not be able to argue against the logic?
Sick Joke (made up by me, a woman, so it's bound to be crap
)What's the difference between communism and capitalism?
The average joe under communism works for the state because he believes what the state says and knows its for his own good while the average joe under capitalism works for the state but believes he's working for himself and therefore his own good.
I think this is very true, a very astute observation.Pippa wrote: What's the difference between communism and capitalism?
The average joe under communism works for the state because he believes what the state says and knows its for his own good while the average joe under capitalism works for the state but believes he's working for himself and therefore his own good.
"Everything's free in America . . . for a small fee in America!"
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth.
Sorry Pippa I won't rise to the bait this timeBelievers and followers of the current system, lovers of government and government backed "truth" might like to argue against these thoughts
http://www.rense.com/general23/gold.htm
People, on the other hand, who believe that peak oil is not a conspiracy theory but a simple fact of cause and effect may not be able to argue against the logic?
[/img]
I think that under lines something I?ve mentioned once or twice before; networking.Pippa wrote: The more and more I think about it, the more I doubt whether folks will become self sufficient (and lets face it we need excess in order to be able to trade and live) on tiny plots of land.
Most things which grow easily and are cultivated on a small scale have a very short growing season and don't contain many calories. If you want to farm a small piece of land even to be self sufficient you will have to grow mainly grains, potatoes and beans - from a staying alive point of view that is.
Its a nice fantasy
I don?t think self-sufficiency will work on an individual scale, especially if you want a reasonable standard of living. To achieve that we need work together. To be prepared for PO and even for clement change we need to make our own individual preparations and then team up with others to help meet the needs we can?t meet ourselves. Self-sufficiency to some degree yes but networking and cooperation as well.
AgreedPippa wrote:
As always, balance is key. Trouble is, where's the balance?
The only future we have is the one we make!
Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu
http://www.lulu.com/technocracy
http://www.technocracy.tk/
Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu
http://www.lulu.com/technocracy
http://www.technocracy.tk/
Apparently 2-5 acres is the ideal sized piece of land from which to make an organic market garden type living (which will be meagre or course, but do-able). Obviously it would take a bit of practice. I think that, while it would be very difficult to be self sufficient in food on a small plot, it's possible to barter with produce and hence rely on others to provide certain things.
Usually the lean months are feb & march, and there will still be things available, just not as many. Root crops can be stored in the ground, and there are many ways of extending the season, such as erecting greenhouses or shelters against south facing walls. Could always take to the fields with an air rifle looking for rabbits if it got that desperate. You can fire allsorts from an air rifle.
Usually the lean months are feb & march, and there will still be things available, just not as many. Root crops can be stored in the ground, and there are many ways of extending the season, such as erecting greenhouses or shelters against south facing walls. Could always take to the fields with an air rifle looking for rabbits if it got that desperate. You can fire allsorts from an air rifle.
Life's too short
-
SILVERHARP2
- Posts: 611
- Joined: 14 Feb 2006, 17:02
- Location: DUBLIN
Re self sufficiency. I am not trying to extrapolate from the specific to the general. In my own case I haven?t planned beyond having the general idea to move to move to the country if the PO scenario takes hold. I believe that for Western Europe it will be a very gradual process, with swings from high priced oil to recessions where oil drops in price. Being debt free and having my savings in gold/silver and other like assets puts me in a better position then probably 90% of my peers. Assuming land prices really fall apart then the issue would be how much land would it be prudent to own, buying a 1000 acres might not make sense even if like in Germany in the 1930?s one could buy a city block for 1 gold coin. In moving to the country, total self sufficiency might not be required however one would have options.
The whole farming on a small scale is quite a fasinating one....
Imagine that you manage to get hold of 3-5 acres of land and you plan to grow things to become self sufficient and maybe even trade food for something else (of course you are going to have to convince someone else to make that thing rather than be a farmer - which seems on this forum to get the largest percentage of votes!)
Anyway, you've got the land and now you need to get the seed into the ground in a pretty short time frame. How are you going to put it in? Are you going to buy a tractor and plough and harrow and seed drill etc etc and if so, how old will that thing be? Will it be one of the huge modern ones or maybe you are looking at an antique? If so, where are you going to get the spare parts and who is going to fix it for you and what are you going to pay them with? Maybe you are going to go for a horse to do the job in which case you need a minimum of one acre per horse to feed it and you are going to have to buy in hay for the winter or use some of your land to grow it on and therefore reduce your yield etc etc or maybe you are going to sow all the seed by hand - well you better be quick! ditto with the harvest but in any case you will still need the hand tools to help or it will be like cutting grass with nail scissors!!!!!!
Or maybe you will pay a contractor to come in with his equipment (in which case you will not be working on the land yourself and will need to find something else to do......)........
Imagine that you manage to get hold of 3-5 acres of land and you plan to grow things to become self sufficient and maybe even trade food for something else (of course you are going to have to convince someone else to make that thing rather than be a farmer - which seems on this forum to get the largest percentage of votes!)
Anyway, you've got the land and now you need to get the seed into the ground in a pretty short time frame. How are you going to put it in? Are you going to buy a tractor and plough and harrow and seed drill etc etc and if so, how old will that thing be? Will it be one of the huge modern ones or maybe you are looking at an antique? If so, where are you going to get the spare parts and who is going to fix it for you and what are you going to pay them with? Maybe you are going to go for a horse to do the job in which case you need a minimum of one acre per horse to feed it and you are going to have to buy in hay for the winter or use some of your land to grow it on and therefore reduce your yield etc etc or maybe you are going to sow all the seed by hand - well you better be quick! ditto with the harvest but in any case you will still need the hand tools to help or it will be like cutting grass with nail scissors!!!!!!
Or maybe you will pay a contractor to come in with his equipment (in which case you will not be working on the land yourself and will need to find something else to do......)........
... all of which suggests that larger farms will be used.
These might be aggregates of smallholdings who share tools and sale outlets etc
It might more likely that business oriented farms re-oriented to a more local market will be setup ... by business men or not by eco warriors.
Their STAFF will be the eco warriors!
These might be aggregates of smallholdings who share tools and sale outlets etc
It might more likely that business oriented farms re-oriented to a more local market will be setup ... by business men or not by eco warriors.
Their STAFF will be the eco warriors!
-
kenneal - lagger
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14290
- Joined: 20 Sep 2006, 02:35
- Location: Newbury, Berkshire
- Contact:
All the books on Permaculture advocate steering away from annual plants and going for perenials. There's less ciltivation that way so you don't need a tractor.
I'm going down the eco village track with a small group of people cooperating. A large garden is easier and more fun to work as a group. It also helps to be living next door to a common where we can graze a large number of animals on land which won't produce anything else and you don't have to own.
If you need bread you can always trade for wheat. Bigger farmers will probably set themselves up to produce somehow. Meat will have a high value in an oil short economy, if you can get it slaughtered. I have to drive 40 miles and back at the moment to an abattoir because of the EU regulations. It's then 40 and back again to pick the meat up. Things will depend on how quickly the regulations break down. If the regulators don't get paid, hopefully they will disapear into the woodwork and we'll be able to slaughter locally.
I'm going down the eco village track with a small group of people cooperating. A large garden is easier and more fun to work as a group. It also helps to be living next door to a common where we can graze a large number of animals on land which won't produce anything else and you don't have to own.
If you need bread you can always trade for wheat. Bigger farmers will probably set themselves up to produce somehow. Meat will have a high value in an oil short economy, if you can get it slaughtered. I have to drive 40 miles and back at the moment to an abattoir because of the EU regulations. It's then 40 and back again to pick the meat up. Things will depend on how quickly the regulations break down. If the regulators don't get paid, hopefully they will disapear into the woodwork and we'll be able to slaughter locally.