US think tank report weighs up “grim future” of nuclear war

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Lord Beria3
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US think tank report weighs up “grim future” of nuclear war

Post by Lord Beria3 »

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/05 ... s-m01.html
A paper published in mid-April by the Washington-based think tank, Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), is a chilling indication of the discussions underway and the preparations being made within the US defence establishment for nuclear war.

CSIS strategic analyst Anthony Cordesman is dismissive of nuclear arms control treaties and negotiations, declaring that developing arms races in Asia and the Middle East “demand a strategy that looks beyond arms control and considers a much grimmer future.”

Cordesman leaves no doubt as to what that future might be. The title of his paper, “Red Lines, Deadlines, and Thinking the Unthinkable: India, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea and China”, is a direct reference to the Cold War strategist Herman Kahn who coldly calculated a strategy for fighting and “winning” a nuclear war.

As Cordesman notes: “Early in the thermonuclear age, Herman Kahn warned the world that it had to ‘think about the unthinkable’: The consequences of an actual nuclear war, and consider which side—if any—might ‘win’.” He continued: “The end of the Cold War seemed to put an end to the need for such thinking, but recent developments in North Korea and Iran make it all too clear that there is still a need for such horrifying yet ‘realist’ analysis.”

In his book “On Thermonuclear War” written in 1960, Kahn argued that life would go on after a devastating nuclear exchange, whether hundreds of millions died or only a few major cities were destroyed. It was necessary, he claimed, for Americans to accept the consequences, no matter how horrifying, because without the willingness to push the button, nuclear war preparations were just an elaborate bluff.

The CSIS paper has a particular significance. Cordesman is well-connected within American defence, intelligence and foreign policy circles, having served at senior levels in the State Department, the Defence Department and acted as consultant on a range of military issues including as part of the Strategic Assessment Group in 2009 that helped devise Obama’s strategy for the AfPak war.

Cordesman devotes the bulk of his paper to the prospects of a nuclear war involving India/Pakistan, Iran and North Korea, leaving China to last. In each case the paper provides a detailed assessment of the nuclear capabilities of the rival states and assesses the strategic consequences of a nuclear conflict in brutally “realist” terms.

On South Asia, the paper warns that the arms build-up could lead to nuclear war, as both India and Pakistan have “a history of overreaction, nationalism, and failure to demonstrate stability and restraint in arms control.” It expresses concern that neither “has really thought out the consequences of a nuclear exchange beyond the ‘Duke Nukem’ school of planning: who can kill more of the enemy.”

But Cordesman’s ghoulish conclusion is that a South Asian nuclear war—a conflict that would bring death and suffering to tens if not hundreds of millions—would not affect the US and its allies. “The good news, from a ruthlessly ‘realist’ viewpoint,” he states, “is that such a human tragedy does not necessarily have serious grand strategic consequences for other states, and might well have benefits... Some fallout perhaps, but not that much in terms of serious radiation exposure measured in rads. The loss of India and Pakistan might create some short term economic issues for importers of goods and services. However, the net effect would shift benefits to other suppliers without any clear problems in substitutions or costs.”
A interesting window into the strategic thinking at the top levels of the Pentagon and the US ruling class.

Reading between the lines, it seems obvious to me that a orchestrated India-Pakistani nuclear war might be encouraged in the future by the US as a means of population reduction on a global level.

I doubt that any future US administration would seriously consider nuclear war against China has the national and indeed personal consequences would be terrible. Even the ruling class would probably die in such a exchange.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
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Re: US think tank report weighs up “grim future” of nuclear

Post by clv101 »

Lord Beria3 wrote:
But Cordesman’s ghoulish conclusion is that a South Asian nuclear war—a conflict that would bring death and suffering to tens if not hundreds of millions—would not affect the US and its allies. “The good news, from a ruthlessly ‘realist’ viewpoint,” he states, “is that such a human tragedy does not necessarily have serious grand strategic consequences for other states, and might well have benefits... Some fallout perhaps, but not that much in terms of serious radiation exposure measured in rads. The loss of India and Pakistan might create some short term economic issues for importers of goods and services. However, the net effect would shift benefits to other suppliers without any clear problems in substitutions or costs.”
This is junk, ignorant of current scientific understanding. I was at a conference in Vienna just last month where the impacts of an India/Pakistan nuclear war were presented. 50 Hiroshima-sized atom bombs as airbursts on urban areas would depress global temperatures and destroy ozone leading to increased UV. Even a decade on global average temperatures remained -1.1C and precipitation -4%. They calculated the climatic and UV impacts on crop yields and found 10-50% reduction (averaged over a decade, greater losses in early years) in main crops over midlatitudes of the Northern Hemisphere.

To suggest "would not affect the US and its allies" is simply ridiculous.
ceti331
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Post by ceti331 »

i've read/partaken in forum arguments where extreme minded people claim that nuclear winter is a conspiracy theory pushed by Carl Sagan, and that nuclear weapons are actually safe to use...
"The stone age didn't end for a lack of stones"... correct, we'll be right back there.
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Re: US think tank report weighs up “grim future” of nuclear

Post by Little John »

Lord Beria3 wrote:http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/05 ... s-m01.html
A paper published in mid-April by the Washington-based think tank, Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), is a chilling indication of the discussions underway and the preparations being made within the US defence establishment for nuclear war.

CSIS strategic analyst Anthony Cordesman is dismissive of nuclear arms control treaties and negotiations, declaring that developing arms races in Asia and the Middle East “demand a strategy that looks beyond arms control and considers a much grimmer future.”

Cordesman leaves no doubt as to what that future might be. The title of his paper, “Red Lines, Deadlines, and Thinking the Unthinkable: India, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea and China”, is a direct reference to the Cold War strategist Herman Kahn who coldly calculated a strategy for fighting and “winning” a nuclear war.

As Cordesman notes: “Early in the thermonuclear age, Herman Kahn warned the world that it had to ‘think about the unthinkable’: The consequences of an actual nuclear war, and consider which side—if any—might ‘win’.” He continued: “The end of the Cold War seemed to put an end to the need for such thinking, but recent developments in North Korea and Iran make it all too clear that there is still a need for such horrifying yet ‘realist’ analysis.”

In his book “On Thermonuclear War” written in 1960, Kahn argued that life would go on after a devastating nuclear exchange, whether hundreds of millions died or only a few major cities were destroyed. It was necessary, he claimed, for Americans to accept the consequences, no matter how horrifying, because without the willingness to push the button, nuclear war preparations were just an elaborate bluff.

The CSIS paper has a particular significance. Cordesman is well-connected within American defence, intelligence and foreign policy circles, having served at senior levels in the State Department, the Defence Department and acted as consultant on a range of military issues including as part of the Strategic Assessment Group in 2009 that helped devise Obama’s strategy for the AfPak war.

Cordesman devotes the bulk of his paper to the prospects of a nuclear war involving India/Pakistan, Iran and North Korea, leaving China to last. In each case the paper provides a detailed assessment of the nuclear capabilities of the rival states and assesses the strategic consequences of a nuclear conflict in brutally “realist” terms.

On South Asia, the paper warns that the arms build-up could lead to nuclear war, as both India and Pakistan have “a history of overreaction, nationalism, and failure to demonstrate stability and restraint in arms control.” It expresses concern that neither “has really thought out the consequences of a nuclear exchange beyond the ‘Duke Nukem’ school of planning: who can kill more of the enemy.”

But Cordesman’s ghoulish conclusion is that a South Asian nuclear war—a conflict that would bring death and suffering to tens if not hundreds of millions—would not affect the US and its allies. “The good news, from a ruthlessly ‘realist’ viewpoint,” he states, “is that such a human tragedy does not necessarily have serious grand strategic consequences for other states, and might well have benefits... Some fallout perhaps, but not that much in terms of serious radiation exposure measured in rads. The loss of India and Pakistan might create some short term economic issues for importers of goods and services. However, the net effect would shift benefits to other suppliers without any clear problems in substitutions or costs.”
A interesting window into the strategic thinking at the top levels of the Pentagon and the US ruling class.

Reading between the lines, it seems obvious to me that a orchestrated India-Pakistani nuclear war might be encouraged in the future by the US as a means of population reduction on a global level.

I doubt that any future US administration would seriously consider nuclear war against China has the national and indeed personal consequences would be terrible. Even the ruling class would probably die in such a exchange.
Bleeding hell LB. Is there any other record you can play or is it just the one.
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

Well, I do have the gold record :lol:
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/05 ... t-m03.html

Now the French are up for to it as well!
The paper recommends maintaining France’s nuclear weapons, such as the SN3G submarine and M51 missile programmes, which cost nearly €3.5 billion (US$4.6 billion) per year. While the White Paper asserts that France’s nuclear weapons programme is “strictly defensive,” it adds, “Some of the assets of the nuclear forces can be used for conventional operations with the approval of the President of the Republic.”

The breaking down of barriers between nuclear and conventional forces is a further step towards using nuclear weapons—a threat that has already been raised by French officials. In 2006, then-president Jacques Chirac announced that France might launch nuclear strikes against terrorists, threats to France’s “strategic supplies,” or threats against its allies (see “French president Chirac threatens nuclear retaliation in the event of terrorist attacks”).
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Post by RenewableCandy »

Well I could have guessed as much :twisted:
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Post by the_lyniezian »

If there is any likelihood of nuclear war it is literally tearing up the rulebook of weapons of mass destruction too horrible to be allowed for use, or at least meant to be there as a deterrent.

I suspect a local war between lesser powers would certainly not have the same impact as some all-out assault between the United States and Russia, though perhaps then again it might be more devastating, because perhaps their defensive capabilities will not be as good as certainly the United States' is.

With the fear of average temperature rises could not a drop in the average global temperature not be in part a good thing, by itself? (Obviously too high a price to pay for it in lives lost directly and other damage caused- a large-scale nuclear exchange is bound to generate significant fallout which might spread, for example).
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Post by adam2 »

IIRC somone suggested detonating nuclear weapons in uninhabited places for the purpose of throwing debris into the upper atmosphere and thereby reducing sunlight to counteract global warming.

A regional nuclear war with limited numbers of weapons used should be survivable for those a safe distance away, probably a few hundred miles.

It would however set an exceedingly dangerous precedent and make larger scale use of nuclear weapons more likely afterwards.
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Post by clv101 »

adam2 wrote:IIRC somone suggested detonating nuclear weapons in uninhabited places for the purpose of throwing debris into the upper atmosphere and thereby reducing sunlight to counteract global warming.
That doesn't really work. Most of the sun blocking and cooling debris isn't from the initial blast, it's from the combustion of the cities. Cities burn really well!

Detonations in the desert, on atolls etc, don't have the smale impact.
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Post by Tarrel »

If there is any likelihood of nuclear war it is literally tearing up the rulebook of weapons of mass destruction too horrible to be allowed for use, or at least meant to be there as a deterrent.
Let's face it, they were not designed as a deterrent, but as an offensive weapon. The deterrent doctrine has arisen in response to a realisation of just how horrible they are. Once the first weapon was tested and proved viable, they couldn't get it on the plane to Japan fast enough.

Actually, can we just listen to ourselves for a moment here? I know these are just musings, but; setting off some nukes in response to global warming? Come on!
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Post by JavaScriptDonkey »

You might be surprised just how many nuclear explosions there have already been on this planet.

This demonstrates it nicely.
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Post by clv101 »

Yes, I made this point here: Nuclear War.
The difference is that nuclear weapons over cities have a dramatically different impact on the climate than those over deserts, on atolls... or of course, underground.
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Post by Tarrel »

JavaScriptDonkey wrote:You might be surprised just how many nuclear explosions there have already been on this planet.

This demonstrates it nicely.
:shock:
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Post by ceti331 »

didn't they consider this sort of thing with Project Orion aswell ... estimating the number of cancer deaths each launch would cause...
"The stone age didn't end for a lack of stones"... correct, we'll be right back there.
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