‘Big Brother’ in your fridge

[JohnB]

Here's an interesting article. Freedom of the individual against the need to reduce energy use.

The UK’s National Grid has proposed all white goods for the British consumers to be fitted with special sensor chips, which would automatically and without owner’s consent turn the device off in the event of abnormal nationwide electricity demand.

The plan, dubbed by critics as “Big Brother technology,” has been backed by the European Network of Transmission System Operators for Electricity (ENTSO-E). The EU-wide body of energy regulators, ENTSO-E has outlined it in a 63-page document sent for the European Commission approval, Mail Online reported on Sunday.

Should the plan find approval in the European Parliament and become legislation, it would enable the energy giants to selectively cut power consumption in millions of homes, instead of having to deploy back-up generators and ask factories to temporarily shut down production.

http://rt.com/news/uk-big-brother-technology-539/

[adam2]

If applied and used sensibly there is a lot to be said for the idea.
Unfortunatly as it innvolves the EU it will probably be hugely expensive, unreliable, and take decades to implement.

Modest demand side control can save both fuel and capital costs.

AFAIK the proposal is to fit controllers to selected appliances that sense the grid frequency and turn the appliance off for a short time if the frequency be low.
Thermostaticly controlled heating and cooling equipment is the obvious choice.

[adam2]

This organisation have been promoting the idea for some years.
http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm

[clv101]

I blogged about this in 2005:
http://chrisvernon.co.uk/2005/10/interm ... le-energy/

[the_lyniezian]

This sounds like a stupid idea. "White goods" will inevitably include fridges and freezers, so switching them off for at least extended periods over a nationwide scale could potentially cause rather a lot of food to spoil and this would cost ordinary households. Of course things may not spoil if the power is cut only for a short time (as has been pointed out to me here before), but it still shows where their priorities are- industry and profits first, ordinary people last.

[adam2]

Fridges and freezers would only be turned off for a few minutes, no risk of food spoiling.
If the compressor was running, and the temperature was already close to the set point at which the compressor would stop, then it would stop a few minutes earlier.
If the compressor was already stopped because the required set point had been reached, then restarting of the compressor would be delayed by a few minutes.
If the temperature of the fridge or freezer was significantly outside the desired zone, then the compressor would run continually.
Air conditioners and storage water heaters would be treated in a similar way.
In the case of washing machines and tumble dryers then the cycle would be paused for perhaps 5 minutes and then resumed.

[clv101]

This sounds like a stupid idea. "White goods" will inevitably include fridges and freezers, so switching them off for at least extended periods over a nationwide scale could potentially cause rather a lot of food to spoil and this would cost ordinary households. Of course things may not spoil if the power is cut only for a short time (as has been pointed out to me here before), but it still shows where their priorities are- industry and profits first, ordinary people last.

The integrity of the food will be prioritised! The concept of Dynamic Demand has been around for at least a decade, it's a shame there hasn't been more education about how it can work.

The very point is that of shaping demand such that the user doesn't notice. Freezers, for example, are able to do this thanks to their thermal inertia.

[BritDownUnder]

A good idea overall to prevent things like the TV pickup. Would be better with storage heaters, water heaters and aircon not fridges though. Unfortunately the Daily Mail got a hold of the idea and made it sound like Big Brother is here. So until Kim Kardashian makes another public appearance this will be all over the Mail's website.

New Zealand had something similar with hot water heaters operating them by a ripple system on the AC frequency. Difference NZ was using it to prevent them having to vary the load on the hydro-electric power stations which form their baseload generation. Apparently the rivers like a regular flow not surges.

[Little John]

Bollocks to all that.

If there is not enough energy to go round, then it should be rationed as it comes through the door so that people can decide for themselves how to consume it. Or, if it must be rationed based on consumption type, then it should be rationed in a before-the-fact-of-consumption manner such that people have the capacity to plan their consumption ahead based on that before-the-fact-of-consumption knowledge.

An example might be something like a certain class of household item being programmed to turn off for 1 minute in every 60 minutes period, for instance. I'm sure others can think of better examples. The point is, this kind of rationing should be constructed in such a way as to afford as much freedom to choose as possible or, if freedom of choice is not possible, then as much prior notice as possible so people can at least plan predictably.

[Little John]

This sounds like a stupid idea. "White goods" will inevitably include fridges and freezers, so switching them off for at least extended periods over a nationwide scale could potentially cause rather a lot of food to spoil and this would cost ordinary households. Of course things may not spoil if the power is cut only for a short time (as has been pointed out to me here before), but it still shows where their priorities are- industry and profits first, ordinary people last.

The integrity of the food will be prioritised! The concept of Dynamic Demand has been around for at least a decade, it's a shame there hasn't been more education about how it can work.

The very point is that of shaping demand such that the user doesn't notice. Freezers, for example, are able to do this thanks to their thermal inertia.

No, I am not happy about the state or anyone else making decisions on my behalf in such as way as I am not supposed to notice. Firstly, I am unhappy about them making those decisions (though I recognise that sometimes such decisions are unavoidable for the common good). Secondly, I am even less happy about them being made such that I am not supposed to notice. That last one is a line crosser.

Don't like on instinct.

[clv101]

When it comes to Dynamic Demand, I completely disagree Steve.

I don't want to buy electricity. I want my freezer to stay frozen and my milk to stay cool. It's about energy service, not energy. My freezer and fridge both have thermostats on them, making decisions on my behalf, maintaining the temperatures within a suitable range without me noticing.

I think it is an excellent extension of this process to have the fridge and freezer, not only maintain themselves as they do now, but also (with no ill effect to my energy service) contribute to maintaining the grid stability. God knows the grid supply is under pressure this coming decade and the increased proportion of intermittent renewables makes demand shaping more important.

We have to give up the crazy 20th century idea of being able to extract as much energy from the grid, whenever we want it. This is dumb, inefficient and not compatible with the changing world. I shouldn't be a one sided problem, where the supply side has to meet whatever is demanded. Demand also needs to react to the instantaneous condition on the grid.

This absolutely should not be seen as someone else making decisions on your behalf - no more than your freezer's thermostat is already making those decisions.

On instinct, I love the dynamic demand concept.

Sizewell B failed in 2008, sparking large scale black outs. In theory, if 20 million fridges and freezers could have come off-line for a few minutes, alternative supply could have been brought on-line and no one would even have noticed. That's an extreme case, but the theory is sound and it's going to become more important in time.

[adam2]

I doubt that this will ever be compulsery, I would expect however that appliances equiped with automatic short term load shedding will be cheaper and therefore more popular.

The lower price could be achieved either by a government grant or subsidy, or by a higher rate of VAT on the appliances not equiped for load shedding.

Those who object to their fridge or freezer going off briefly will be able to purchase one that does not, but may have to pay a higher price.

Due to the logistical problems I cant forsee existing domestic appliances being retrofitted.
Existing large scale industrial machinery might be worth retrofitting.
It is a lot easier to modify a single 500KW chiller than to retrofit 5,000 domestic fridges.

[Little John]

No, I can immediately see where something like this would go. So-called "Dynamic demand" would be reserved for the great unwashed. Bollocks to that.

We all know that energy supply is going to be tight and we all know that this means that rationing is coming. However, such rationing should be both transparent, equitable and, as far as possible, predictable.

Whilst there is nothing inherently wrong with such technology, its implementation in this kind of way in the kind of political and economic system we have right now would just end up being used to make the poor pay the brunt of the pain per-capita of shortages.

As per usual.

[clv101]

We're talking about completely different things here. I see Dynamic Demand as being transparent and equitable. It's about delivering the same energy service in a more efficient manner. Of course it can never be compulsory, it's intelligence in the device itself.

I think some form of rationing is inevitable, and any alternative form of rationing will have a lot more impact on us than Dynamic Demand will!

[Blue Peter]

I think some form of rationing is inevitable, and any alternative form of rationing will have a lot more impact on us than Dynamic Demand will!

Do you have any idea of what the costs of DD-ing various appliances would be?


Peter.