I don't think it's out yet is it? I pre-ordered a copy and I seem to recall it's due out in May. Should be good, anyway.RalphW wrote:Dimitri Orlov has a new book out on the five stages of collapse and how to survive them.
http://www.resilience.org/stories/2013- ... ook-review
And he is an entertaining read.
He is reductionist - break the problem into parts and find an adaption set (physical and mental) for each of them in turn. The problem is keeping it all together in your head without exploding...
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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emordnilap
- Posts: 14814
- Joined: 05 Sep 2007, 16:36
- Location: here
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
Fair point and of course you are right.emordnilap wrote:You say you don't feel trapped - most people don't - but you are, we all are, me included as well as the most anarchic hereon.
Maybe that would change if we experienced more than just the slow crashing that's going on at present, if/when some gigantic upheaval takes place. But how many could really survive without the trappings (hah!) of industrial society?
Real money is gold and silver
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sushil_yadav
- Posts: 189
- Joined: 23 Feb 2006, 14:21
- Location: Delhi , India
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How does society treat its criminals???
It keeps them in prison....It knows the work of criminals is harmful and destructive and if they are left free they are not going to stop....So it keeps them in prisons where they are prevented from doing harmful and destructive work....And they are given food for free.
The same needs to be done to the Urban Population.
The entire Urban Population is criminal....Urban Work is injurious to this planet....Urban Work has destroyed Biodiversity and Ecosystems.
Urban Population must be forced to stop its destructive work.
The criminals who are in prison don't stop their destructive work willingly.....They are forced to do so....The same needs to be done with Urban Population.
We don't even need to build new prisons for Urban Dwellers.....Cities are no less than prisons.
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If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.
If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.
That is the worth of Urban Work in this world.
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How does society treat its criminals???
It keeps them in prison....It knows the work of criminals is harmful and destructive and if they are left free they are not going to stop....So it keeps them in prisons where they are prevented from doing harmful and destructive work....And they are given food for free.
The same needs to be done to the Urban Population.
The entire Urban Population is criminal....Urban Work is injurious to this planet....Urban Work has destroyed Biodiversity and Ecosystems.
Urban Population must be forced to stop its destructive work.
The criminals who are in prison don't stop their destructive work willingly.....They are forced to do so....The same needs to be done with Urban Population.
We don't even need to build new prisons for Urban Dwellers.....Cities are no less than prisons.
.
.
If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.
If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.
That is the worth of Urban Work in this world.
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.sushil_yadav wrote:
Animal Species searched for Food
Hunter_Gatherer Society searched for Food
Agrarian Society produced Food
Rural Industrial Society is producing Food
Urban Industrial Society is producing Thousands of Consumer Goods and Services.
Urban Industrial Society is the Anomaly.
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The work of Urban Industrial Society is Extra, Unnecessary and Destructive.
Urban Work has destroyed environment.....Urban Work must stop immediately.
Urban Dwellers are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.
Production of Industrial Consumer Goods must stop immediately.
Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working....They can be given food for free to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work.
This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" societies....For millions of years "searching for food"/ "producing food" was the primary occupation on earth.
Industrial Activity for production of thousands of consumer goods and services must stop immediately....Millions of other species get only food from earth....The maximum that man can/ should get is food, clothing and shelter.
The collective work of society must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.
A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.
If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.
At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.
We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated.
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raspberry-blower
- Posts: 1868
- Joined: 14 Mar 2009, 11:26
Depends on what class of criminal, Sushil.sushil_yadav wrote:..
How does society treat its criminals???
If it is the underclass then it is a case of "sling 'em in clink" with the red tops that they should all be locked up for good.
With regards to the financial criminals, however, it is a different story entirely. Instead of being tried for all of their plunder and false accounting, they are, instead, given the keys to the printing press of the BoE that allows them loans on money for free
You never hear the red tops demanding tough prison sentances on those who have defrauded the whole country.
The financial criminals are the ones who should be incarcerated first and for the longest period.
There is also a well known war criminal who "works" for JP Morgan who should stand in the dock first...
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
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sushil_yadav
- Posts: 189
- Joined: 23 Feb 2006, 14:21
- Location: Delhi , India
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Out of millions of species on earth human species is the only lunatic one whose food comes from money.
People who think food comes from money can load billions of dollars into a Rocket, send it to the moon and try buying a single grain of food over there.
Out of millions of species on earth human species is the only lunatic one which writes on the food it eats....So much Protein, So much Carbohydrate, So much Fat.
[And yet human species is the only one half of whose population has grown obese]
40 - 50% of food goes waste in Industrial Society for various reasons.....Storage, Processing, Transportation, Packaging, Expiry Dates and Unnecessary Purchases.
In Agrarian Society food was produced and consumed locally and without packaging which caused minimal wastage of food.
Coming back to buying food with money.....This madness also existed in Agrarian Society but it caused very little environmental destruction because the percentage of Urban Population was very small and it was also not engaged in Industrial Activity.
In Industrial Society a fraction of population is producing food for entire population but it is not given directly to Urban Population.....It is stored in buildings.
The Urban Population is made to produce thousands of consumer goods and services....It then sells these consumer goods and services in return for money....With this money it buys food.
Industrial Activity for production of thousands of consumer goods and services has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth.
We can save the remaining environment right now if Urban Population is stopped from making consumer goods and is given food for free.
This planet can only sustain a Hunter_Gatherer or Agrarian Society where almost the entire population is engaged in "searching for food" or "producing food".
The question of Industrial Society being sustainable does not arise.
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Out of millions of species on earth human species is the only lunatic one whose food comes from money.
People who think food comes from money can load billions of dollars into a Rocket, send it to the moon and try buying a single grain of food over there.
Out of millions of species on earth human species is the only lunatic one which writes on the food it eats....So much Protein, So much Carbohydrate, So much Fat.
[And yet human species is the only one half of whose population has grown obese]
40 - 50% of food goes waste in Industrial Society for various reasons.....Storage, Processing, Transportation, Packaging, Expiry Dates and Unnecessary Purchases.
In Agrarian Society food was produced and consumed locally and without packaging which caused minimal wastage of food.
Coming back to buying food with money.....This madness also existed in Agrarian Society but it caused very little environmental destruction because the percentage of Urban Population was very small and it was also not engaged in Industrial Activity.
In Industrial Society a fraction of population is producing food for entire population but it is not given directly to Urban Population.....It is stored in buildings.
The Urban Population is made to produce thousands of consumer goods and services....It then sells these consumer goods and services in return for money....With this money it buys food.
Industrial Activity for production of thousands of consumer goods and services has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth.
We can save the remaining environment right now if Urban Population is stopped from making consumer goods and is given food for free.
This planet can only sustain a Hunter_Gatherer or Agrarian Society where almost the entire population is engaged in "searching for food" or "producing food".
The question of Industrial Society being sustainable does not arise.
.
Last edited by sushil_yadav on 14 Apr 2013, 02:45, edited 1 time in total.
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the_lyniezian
- Posts: 1125
- Joined: 17 Oct 2009, 11:40
- Location: South Bernicia
- Contact:
The thing is our society is still largely predicated on the idea that you're supposed to work in order to eat.
It's a nice idea suggesting we can give out free food to the no doubt otherwise starving unemployed masses who aren't allowed to work producing useless consumer goods, but it's anathema.
There are charities which take past-its-best-before date to feed the homeless and whatnot, over here, and even a few people who basically fish around in supermarket skips for perfectly edible leftovers that get thrown away. Even then there is much more which, even if not dumped, would possibly still go to waste.
Which makes you wonder whether the real problem is not that we are producing more than we need in terms of useless consumer goods, but that we are so good at producing everything that we are inclined to overuse and waste. Especially food.
Consider the biodiversity loss that comes from using pesticides. Consider the leaching and run-off of artificial fertilisers that poison rivers and streams. Consider that all those tractors and combine harvesters have a carbon footprint. Consider the damage done by overfishing practices, mega-trawlers and the like, on fish stocks. And the fish wasted on stupid badly-designed EU quota rules, if you live over here, that are only just being addressed.
(And who do you think manufactures all the farm machinery, pesticides, fertiliser etc.? If not the "urban" industrial worker?)
And consider it was a pre-industrial society which built the Pyramids to do what a simple hole in the ground would have done- to entomb a dead body. (Yes, I dare say there was some sort of significance in showing the pharohes could bring order out of chaos by commanding such things to be built, or whatever.) Or another one building the Colloseum and the Circus Maximus for entertainment.
Pre-industrial societies did more than just producing food. And we are doing plenty of damage by producing it in an unsustainable way.
I think what we have to do is re-think our paradigm, and our behaviour patterns, first. Perhaps ultimately we can't sustain building of large cities forever. In fact we probably need to shrink them lest we run out of viable agricultural land, ruin every last wildlife habitat, and leave ourselves high and dry from not being able to depend on our cars anymore. But that will have to be a gradual process, since people can't move en masse and new accomodation must be built.
Simply giving food handouts won't work unless you have some viable means of paying the people who produce it. A certain amount can and will come through charity if people are naturally made hard up, but that is limited. You could have state welfare pay benefits, but the government must get its money somehow. You could even have the state hand out free food, but again, it must pay for it somehow.
As to the prison analogy I am pretty sure even prisoners get put to work doing something useful, at least in some parts of the world.
I think first thing is to reform an economic system that requires growth in order to be sustained. Second, mass rethink of priorities as to material expectations in life, bot h in the developed and developing world, which seems to be modelling its aspirations on the already developed far too much. I don't know how we do without the profit motive but part of the problem is that the profit motive has gone beyond even rational self interest it seems. But realise there are other motives too, and we must consider something more than merely maximising shareholder value. Reduce the need to overwork to overproduce, and on the other end to overconsume (physician, heal thyself), and redirect our energies to other things. Whatever they are.
Also to redesign the system of doing things in order to minimise ridiculous waste. And produce enough food whilst minimising the environmental impact. I wonder if permaculture principles could help here? And more local production, a change of diet in order to make the best use of available land resources.
Yes, and population control (of the non-coercive kind, yes I'm looking at you UE, metaphorically speaking) may have to come into it somewhere.
It's a tall order I admit, and one wonders if it's doable given human bloody-mindedness (including my own, which must be rectified- and I admit most of you folks are way ahead on the curve than me).
It's a nice idea suggesting we can give out free food to the no doubt otherwise starving unemployed masses who aren't allowed to work producing useless consumer goods, but it's anathema.
There are charities which take past-its-best-before date to feed the homeless and whatnot, over here, and even a few people who basically fish around in supermarket skips for perfectly edible leftovers that get thrown away. Even then there is much more which, even if not dumped, would possibly still go to waste.
Which makes you wonder whether the real problem is not that we are producing more than we need in terms of useless consumer goods, but that we are so good at producing everything that we are inclined to overuse and waste. Especially food.
Consider the biodiversity loss that comes from using pesticides. Consider the leaching and run-off of artificial fertilisers that poison rivers and streams. Consider that all those tractors and combine harvesters have a carbon footprint. Consider the damage done by overfishing practices, mega-trawlers and the like, on fish stocks. And the fish wasted on stupid badly-designed EU quota rules, if you live over here, that are only just being addressed.
(And who do you think manufactures all the farm machinery, pesticides, fertiliser etc.? If not the "urban" industrial worker?)
And consider it was a pre-industrial society which built the Pyramids to do what a simple hole in the ground would have done- to entomb a dead body. (Yes, I dare say there was some sort of significance in showing the pharohes could bring order out of chaos by commanding such things to be built, or whatever.) Or another one building the Colloseum and the Circus Maximus for entertainment.
Pre-industrial societies did more than just producing food. And we are doing plenty of damage by producing it in an unsustainable way.
I think what we have to do is re-think our paradigm, and our behaviour patterns, first. Perhaps ultimately we can't sustain building of large cities forever. In fact we probably need to shrink them lest we run out of viable agricultural land, ruin every last wildlife habitat, and leave ourselves high and dry from not being able to depend on our cars anymore. But that will have to be a gradual process, since people can't move en masse and new accomodation must be built.
Simply giving food handouts won't work unless you have some viable means of paying the people who produce it. A certain amount can and will come through charity if people are naturally made hard up, but that is limited. You could have state welfare pay benefits, but the government must get its money somehow. You could even have the state hand out free food, but again, it must pay for it somehow.
As to the prison analogy I am pretty sure even prisoners get put to work doing something useful, at least in some parts of the world.
I think first thing is to reform an economic system that requires growth in order to be sustained. Second, mass rethink of priorities as to material expectations in life, bot h in the developed and developing world, which seems to be modelling its aspirations on the already developed far too much. I don't know how we do without the profit motive but part of the problem is that the profit motive has gone beyond even rational self interest it seems. But realise there are other motives too, and we must consider something more than merely maximising shareholder value. Reduce the need to overwork to overproduce, and on the other end to overconsume (physician, heal thyself), and redirect our energies to other things. Whatever they are.
Also to redesign the system of doing things in order to minimise ridiculous waste. And produce enough food whilst minimising the environmental impact. I wonder if permaculture principles could help here? And more local production, a change of diet in order to make the best use of available land resources.
Yes, and population control (of the non-coercive kind, yes I'm looking at you UE, metaphorically speaking) may have to come into it somewhere.
It's a tall order I admit, and one wonders if it's doable given human bloody-mindedness (including my own, which must be rectified- and I admit most of you folks are way ahead on the curve than me).
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sushil_yadav
- Posts: 189
- Joined: 23 Feb 2006, 14:21
- Location: Delhi , India
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Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.
This planet would have been in very fine condition today if man had stayed in Agrarian Stage.
In the absence of industrialization there would have been no problem of overpopulation or overconsumerism.
World population would have been less than 2 billion today.
Agrarian Society of less than 2 billion would be destroying environment for Agrarian Agriculture.
Whereas Industrial Society of more than 7 billion is destroying environment for Industrial Agriculture plus production of thousands of Industrial Consumer Goods and Services.
Industrial Agriculture with its use of Insecticides, Pesticides, Fertilizers and Heavy Machinery is thousands of times more destructive than Agrarian Agriculture.
Agrarian Agriculture for feeding less than 2 billion people would have destroyed much less environment than Industrial Agriculture for feeding more than 7 billion people.....In addition to this all the environmental destruction for Production and use of thousands of Industrial Consumer Goods and Services would be absent in Agrarian Society.
Forest Cover would have been much greater than what it is now....Millions of wild species would not have been decimated and would be thriving with very healthy populations.
Oceans would not have turned acidic and warmer....There would be no oxygen-deprived dead zones in the oceans....Fish would not have been decimated by Industrial Fishing and Industrial Waste.
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There is no way Agrarian Society could have taken down the entire planet like Industrial Society has done.
In Agrarian Society environmental destruction was localized and very small compared to environmental destruction of Industrial Society......It is like comparing the Lamp with the Sun.
In the absence of Industrial Machines only limited destruction of nature was possible......Agrarian Societies only destroyed some ecosystems on the land - forests and soil......Marine ecology was almost 100% safe in Agrarian Stage....Oceans were almost 100% safe in pre-industrial society.
No Agrarian Society poisoned and contaminated the planet with billions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.
Agrarian Society destroyed environment for Agriculture......Industrial Society has destroyed environment for Agriculture and Industry.
Industrial Society has destroyed environment for Agriculture plus Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Transportation Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling. Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Network, Millions of kilometers of Air Routes and Shipping Lanes.
Industrial Society has destroyed the entire planet - The Land, The Sky, The Oceans.....It has decimated millions of other species.
Billions of animals are being slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day.....Billions of fish are being killed by Industrial Fishing every day....Millions of acres of Forests are being destroyed by Industrial Activity every day....Millions of wild animals in forests are being killed by Industrial Activity every day.....Millions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste is being added to environment every day....Millions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste and eWaste are being added to environment every day.... Millions of acres of Fertile Soil is being killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day....Nuclear Industry has produced millions of tonnes of Nuclear Waste which will keep contaminating the planet with hazardous radioactivity for the next thousands of years.
Agrarian Society destroyed environment for food, clothing and shelter.
Industrial Society has destroyed environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
Industrialization is also the cause of overpopulation....World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.
If Industrialization had not happened, Agrarian Society of less than 2 billion would be destroying environment for food, clothing and shelter.
Whereas Industrial Society of more than 7 billion is destroying environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
Industrial Society is millions of times more destructive than Agrarian Society.
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Industrial Society has destroyed so much environment that there is hardly any environment left to save.
Hunter_Gatherer Society was sustainable....Agrarian Society was much more destructive than Hunter_Gatherer Society but still sustainable....It used to provide food, clothing and shelter.....That is the limit, The maximum that man can/ should get from planet earth [Millions of other species only get food from this planet].
To prevent total destruction of biodiversity and ecosystems the collective work of society must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.
This needs to be done immediately.
A few years later would be too late.
.
Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.
This planet would have been in very fine condition today if man had stayed in Agrarian Stage.
In the absence of industrialization there would have been no problem of overpopulation or overconsumerism.
World population would have been less than 2 billion today.
Agrarian Society of less than 2 billion would be destroying environment for Agrarian Agriculture.
Whereas Industrial Society of more than 7 billion is destroying environment for Industrial Agriculture plus production of thousands of Industrial Consumer Goods and Services.
Industrial Agriculture with its use of Insecticides, Pesticides, Fertilizers and Heavy Machinery is thousands of times more destructive than Agrarian Agriculture.
Agrarian Agriculture for feeding less than 2 billion people would have destroyed much less environment than Industrial Agriculture for feeding more than 7 billion people.....In addition to this all the environmental destruction for Production and use of thousands of Industrial Consumer Goods and Services would be absent in Agrarian Society.
Forest Cover would have been much greater than what it is now....Millions of wild species would not have been decimated and would be thriving with very healthy populations.
Oceans would not have turned acidic and warmer....There would be no oxygen-deprived dead zones in the oceans....Fish would not have been decimated by Industrial Fishing and Industrial Waste.
.
.
There is no way Agrarian Society could have taken down the entire planet like Industrial Society has done.
In Agrarian Society environmental destruction was localized and very small compared to environmental destruction of Industrial Society......It is like comparing the Lamp with the Sun.
In the absence of Industrial Machines only limited destruction of nature was possible......Agrarian Societies only destroyed some ecosystems on the land - forests and soil......Marine ecology was almost 100% safe in Agrarian Stage....Oceans were almost 100% safe in pre-industrial society.
No Agrarian Society poisoned and contaminated the planet with billions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.
Agrarian Society destroyed environment for Agriculture......Industrial Society has destroyed environment for Agriculture and Industry.
Industrial Society has destroyed environment for Agriculture plus Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Transportation Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling. Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Network, Millions of kilometers of Air Routes and Shipping Lanes.
Industrial Society has destroyed the entire planet - The Land, The Sky, The Oceans.....It has decimated millions of other species.
Billions of animals are being slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day.....Billions of fish are being killed by Industrial Fishing every day....Millions of acres of Forests are being destroyed by Industrial Activity every day....Millions of wild animals in forests are being killed by Industrial Activity every day.....Millions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste is being added to environment every day....Millions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste and eWaste are being added to environment every day.... Millions of acres of Fertile Soil is being killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day....Nuclear Industry has produced millions of tonnes of Nuclear Waste which will keep contaminating the planet with hazardous radioactivity for the next thousands of years.
Agrarian Society destroyed environment for food, clothing and shelter.
Industrial Society has destroyed environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
Industrialization is also the cause of overpopulation....World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.
If Industrialization had not happened, Agrarian Society of less than 2 billion would be destroying environment for food, clothing and shelter.
Whereas Industrial Society of more than 7 billion is destroying environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
Industrial Society is millions of times more destructive than Agrarian Society.
.
.
Industrial Society has destroyed so much environment that there is hardly any environment left to save.
Hunter_Gatherer Society was sustainable....Agrarian Society was much more destructive than Hunter_Gatherer Society but still sustainable....It used to provide food, clothing and shelter.....That is the limit, The maximum that man can/ should get from planet earth [Millions of other species only get food from this planet].
To prevent total destruction of biodiversity and ecosystems the collective work of society must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.
This needs to be done immediately.
A few years later would be too late.
.
Last edited by sushil_yadav on 15 Apr 2013, 06:56, edited 1 time in total.
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the_lyniezian
- Posts: 1125
- Joined: 17 Oct 2009, 11:40
- Location: South Bernicia
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You are right in many respects, and do well to point out how even agriculture and food production is damaging the environment; also you rightly mention how "industrialised" society is in large part responsible for population growth.
There is our bind.
Until we can implement alternative farming methods there is no way we can adequately feed 7 billion plus people who cannot be expected to die in huge numbers, without "industrial agriculture". And I do not think we can re-orient our society towards primarily focussing on food, clothing and shelter (as well as whatever else is needful to basic survival) without destroying many businesses and putting millions of people out of work, causing massive social problems. Yes, we can provide people with free food but what are they going to do with their lives? Work at least gives some hint of meaning and purpose, or at least structure, to people's lives, and without it you will get massive social problems I would think. I suppose practicing spiritual disciplines, meditiation as you have suggested is good for some but we cannot all live some sort of quasi-monastic lives.
As others here have pointed out we feel trapped in the current industrial paradigm.
I think the solution is not simply to stop doing that which is not needful but to re-orient the entire paradigm of global society. Food, clothing and shelter can all fall under "useless consumer goods" if we let them- some might eat things we don't need that are not good for us; some might buy more clothing than they will ever wear or at least wear things only once for a given occasion or buy new garments when the old ones go out of fashion; and as for housing, the amount of urban and suburban development which is simply not required or could be dealt with using existing housing stock is obscene. And why are they produced? Largely to feed the insatiable desire for profit and wealth, assumed economic growth as necessity, and misplaced notions of "standard of living". Perhaps to that we could add failed ideas of "progress" and the desire for novelty. These are what need to be dealt with I think, and the rest may follow.
Yes, we must also act now, but realise that in reality these things are a process. Suggesting it may be too late in a few years is pointless- in ways you have already hinted at, it is already "too late", there is not much environment left to save. Doing anything overnight is unworkable, and what we need are real solutions, not idealistic fantasies.
Perhaps it is in some way all an idealistic fantasy, seeing as human greed is perhaps endemic. There are always some who will want to be richer, more powerful, better off than others, under whatever system you have- captitalism, socialism, feudalism, whatever. But changing our mindset, and ultimately the system is something we cannot afford not to try.
There is our bind.
Until we can implement alternative farming methods there is no way we can adequately feed 7 billion plus people who cannot be expected to die in huge numbers, without "industrial agriculture". And I do not think we can re-orient our society towards primarily focussing on food, clothing and shelter (as well as whatever else is needful to basic survival) without destroying many businesses and putting millions of people out of work, causing massive social problems. Yes, we can provide people with free food but what are they going to do with their lives? Work at least gives some hint of meaning and purpose, or at least structure, to people's lives, and without it you will get massive social problems I would think. I suppose practicing spiritual disciplines, meditiation as you have suggested is good for some but we cannot all live some sort of quasi-monastic lives.
As others here have pointed out we feel trapped in the current industrial paradigm.
I think the solution is not simply to stop doing that which is not needful but to re-orient the entire paradigm of global society. Food, clothing and shelter can all fall under "useless consumer goods" if we let them- some might eat things we don't need that are not good for us; some might buy more clothing than they will ever wear or at least wear things only once for a given occasion or buy new garments when the old ones go out of fashion; and as for housing, the amount of urban and suburban development which is simply not required or could be dealt with using existing housing stock is obscene. And why are they produced? Largely to feed the insatiable desire for profit and wealth, assumed economic growth as necessity, and misplaced notions of "standard of living". Perhaps to that we could add failed ideas of "progress" and the desire for novelty. These are what need to be dealt with I think, and the rest may follow.
Yes, we must also act now, but realise that in reality these things are a process. Suggesting it may be too late in a few years is pointless- in ways you have already hinted at, it is already "too late", there is not much environment left to save. Doing anything overnight is unworkable, and what we need are real solutions, not idealistic fantasies.
Perhaps it is in some way all an idealistic fantasy, seeing as human greed is perhaps endemic. There are always some who will want to be richer, more powerful, better off than others, under whatever system you have- captitalism, socialism, feudalism, whatever. But changing our mindset, and ultimately the system is something we cannot afford not to try.
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the_lyniezian
- Posts: 1125
- Joined: 17 Oct 2009, 11:40
- Location: South Bernicia
- Contact:
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sushil_yadav
- Posts: 189
- Joined: 23 Feb 2006, 14:21
- Location: Delhi , India
.
Industrialization has destroyed the planet.
The most ridiculous explanation for the switch over from Agrarian to Industrial Stage comes from researchers who claim that Industrialization was needed to solve the problems of Agrarian Society.
This is a prime example of how unnecessary professions in Industrial Society [One of which is Research] are making people more and more crazy.
Industrialization was the biggest problem.....How could it ever have been a solution???
It is claimed that Industrialization was needed to sustain/ feed the increasing population.
Industrial Society is producing thousands of consumer goods.....Are consumer goods food???
Moreover, Population increased due to industrialization.....World Population jumped from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.
If man had stayed in Agrarian Stage human population would have been less than 2 billion today.
Agrarian Agriculture would have easily fed this population.....And in case the population did increase beyond sustainable level only the excess human population would have died, Not the entire human population.
Millions of other species, Forests, Rivers, Oceans and Atmosphere would have been in very good condition today.
Staying in Agrarian Stage was the solution.
Agrarian Society sustained for 10,000 years.....It would have sustained forever if it had not been replaced by Industrial Society.
The first switch over from Hunter_Gatherer Stage to Agrarian Stage may be excused but not the second switch over from Agrarian Stage to Industrial Stage.
When man switched over from Hunter_Gatherer to Agrarian Stage he was not aware of the small size of the planet and the limited resources it contained.....When the second switch over happened he was well aware of it.
Continuing with Industrial Activity in the present time when most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems have already been destroyed is Height of Insanity.
.
Industrialization has destroyed the planet.
The most ridiculous explanation for the switch over from Agrarian to Industrial Stage comes from researchers who claim that Industrialization was needed to solve the problems of Agrarian Society.
This is a prime example of how unnecessary professions in Industrial Society [One of which is Research] are making people more and more crazy.
Industrialization was the biggest problem.....How could it ever have been a solution???
It is claimed that Industrialization was needed to sustain/ feed the increasing population.
Industrial Society is producing thousands of consumer goods.....Are consumer goods food???
Moreover, Population increased due to industrialization.....World Population jumped from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.
If man had stayed in Agrarian Stage human population would have been less than 2 billion today.
Agrarian Agriculture would have easily fed this population.....And in case the population did increase beyond sustainable level only the excess human population would have died, Not the entire human population.
Millions of other species, Forests, Rivers, Oceans and Atmosphere would have been in very good condition today.
Staying in Agrarian Stage was the solution.
Agrarian Society sustained for 10,000 years.....It would have sustained forever if it had not been replaced by Industrial Society.
The first switch over from Hunter_Gatherer Stage to Agrarian Stage may be excused but not the second switch over from Agrarian Stage to Industrial Stage.
When man switched over from Hunter_Gatherer to Agrarian Stage he was not aware of the small size of the planet and the limited resources it contained.....When the second switch over happened he was well aware of it.
Continuing with Industrial Activity in the present time when most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems have already been destroyed is Height of Insanity.
.
Last edited by sushil_yadav on 19 Apr 2013, 09:34, edited 3 times in total.
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woodburner
- Posts: 4124
- Joined: 06 Apr 2009, 22:45
No it hasn't, the planet is still here.-
sushil_yadav
- Posts: 189
- Joined: 23 Feb 2006, 14:21
- Location: Delhi , India
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The most dangerous and destructive industry in this world is Education Industry.
Education Industry is the source of all Industrial Activity that has destroyed environment....All other industries are by products of Education Industry.
Universities and Colleges are producing millions of Scientists, Engineers, Economists, MBA's, Business and Finance Graduates who are running and promoting all Industrial Activity in this world.
Education Industry is the Mother of all Industries.
Education Industry is the Mother of all Environmental Destruction.
All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run by Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education.
Education has destroyed environment.
School and University Education has destroyed environment.
Educated People are the biggest Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.
Schools and Universities must be closed down.....Immediately!!!
Billions of animals are being slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Industrial Farming of animals, Industrial Slaughter Houses, Refrigeration/ Transportation Industry which transports live and dead animals all over the world and Marketing Industry which sells meat.
Billions of fish are being killed by Industrial Fishing every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Industrial Ships which catch fish, Refrigeration/ Transportation Industry which transports fish all over the world and Marketing Industry which sells fish.
Millions of acres of Forests are being destroyed by Industrial Activity every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Marketing Industry, Construction Industry, Transportation Industry, Oil Drilling and Refining Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road networks which are destroying forests moment by moment.
Millions of wild animals in forests are being killed by Industrial Activity every day because of Education....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for the decimation of wild animals.
Millions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste is being added to environment every day because of Education.....Millions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste and eWaste are being added to environment every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for the poisoning of Rivers, Oceans, Land and Sky/ Atmosphere.
Millions of acres of Fertile Soil is being killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day because of Education....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for destruction of fertile soil by Construction Industry.
Education is responsible for millions of tonnes of Nuclear Waste produced by Nuclear Industry which will keep contaminating the planet with hazardous radioactivity for the next thousands of years.....This radioactivity will remain a potential source of cancer, death, multiple organ failures, physical and mental deformities for thousands of years....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Radioactivity produced by Nuclear Industry.
.
.
Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.
Environment has been destroyed by Urban Population, Urban Work and Urban Education.
All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run by Urban Population and Urban Education.
Animal Species searched for Food
Hunter_Gatherer Society searched for Food
Agrarian Society produced Food
Rural Industrial Society is producing Food
Urban Industrial Society is producing Thousands of Consumer Goods and Services.
Urban Industrial Society is the Anomaly.
.
.
The work of Urban Industrial Society is Extra, Unnecessary and Destructive.
Urban Work has destroyed environment.....Urban Work must stop immediately.
Production of Industrial Consumer Goods must stop immediately.
If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.
If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.
That is the worth of Urban Work in this world.
Industrial Activity for production of thousands of consumer goods and services must stop immediately....Millions of other species get only food from earth....The maximum that man can/ should get is food, clothing and shelter.
This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" societies....For millions of years "searching for food"/ "producing food" was the primary occupation on earth.
The whole society needs to be reorganized...Urban Dwellers have to be relocated in Rural Areas....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work....They can be given food for free in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work.
.
The most dangerous and destructive industry in this world is Education Industry.
Education Industry is the source of all Industrial Activity that has destroyed environment....All other industries are by products of Education Industry.
Universities and Colleges are producing millions of Scientists, Engineers, Economists, MBA's, Business and Finance Graduates who are running and promoting all Industrial Activity in this world.
Education Industry is the Mother of all Industries.
Education Industry is the Mother of all Environmental Destruction.
All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run by Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education.
Education has destroyed environment.
School and University Education has destroyed environment.
Educated People are the biggest Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.
Schools and Universities must be closed down.....Immediately!!!
Billions of animals are being slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Industrial Farming of animals, Industrial Slaughter Houses, Refrigeration/ Transportation Industry which transports live and dead animals all over the world and Marketing Industry which sells meat.
Billions of fish are being killed by Industrial Fishing every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Industrial Ships which catch fish, Refrigeration/ Transportation Industry which transports fish all over the world and Marketing Industry which sells fish.
Millions of acres of Forests are being destroyed by Industrial Activity every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Marketing Industry, Construction Industry, Transportation Industry, Oil Drilling and Refining Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road networks which are destroying forests moment by moment.
Millions of wild animals in forests are being killed by Industrial Activity every day because of Education....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for the decimation of wild animals.
Millions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste is being added to environment every day because of Education.....Millions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste and eWaste are being added to environment every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for the poisoning of Rivers, Oceans, Land and Sky/ Atmosphere.
Millions of acres of Fertile Soil is being killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day because of Education....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for destruction of fertile soil by Construction Industry.
Education is responsible for millions of tonnes of Nuclear Waste produced by Nuclear Industry which will keep contaminating the planet with hazardous radioactivity for the next thousands of years.....This radioactivity will remain a potential source of cancer, death, multiple organ failures, physical and mental deformities for thousands of years....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Radioactivity produced by Nuclear Industry.
.
.
Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.
Environment has been destroyed by Urban Population, Urban Work and Urban Education.
All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run by Urban Population and Urban Education.
Animal Species searched for Food
Hunter_Gatherer Society searched for Food
Agrarian Society produced Food
Rural Industrial Society is producing Food
Urban Industrial Society is producing Thousands of Consumer Goods and Services.
Urban Industrial Society is the Anomaly.
.
.
The work of Urban Industrial Society is Extra, Unnecessary and Destructive.
Urban Work has destroyed environment.....Urban Work must stop immediately.
Production of Industrial Consumer Goods must stop immediately.
If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.
If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.
That is the worth of Urban Work in this world.
Industrial Activity for production of thousands of consumer goods and services must stop immediately....Millions of other species get only food from earth....The maximum that man can/ should get is food, clothing and shelter.
This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" societies....For millions of years "searching for food"/ "producing food" was the primary occupation on earth.
The whole society needs to be reorganized...Urban Dwellers have to be relocated in Rural Areas....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work....They can be given food for free in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work.
.
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the_lyniezian
- Posts: 1125
- Joined: 17 Oct 2009, 11:40
- Location: South Bernicia
- Contact:
Too late. I did not personally claim that industrialisation was needed to solve hunger back then (though perhaps there are fewer famines in the West than there were before). What I did do was to ask whether it is possible to keep alive the population that has been a result of that population growth, without a certain amount of industrial activity. The population does not have to keep growing, and how have we known how to do that without the research you despise?sushil_yadav wrote:.
Industrialization has destroyed the planet.
The most ridiculous explanation for the switch over from Agrarian to Industrial Stage comes from researchers who claim that Industrialization was needed to solve the problems of Agrarian Society.
This is a prime example of how unnecessary professions in Industrial Society [One of which is Research] are making people more and more crazy.
Industrialization was the biggest problem.....How could it ever have been a solution???
It is claimed that Industrialization was needed to sustain/ feed the increasing population.
Industrial Society is producing thousands of consumer goods.....Are consumer goods food???
Moreover, Population increased due to industrialization.....World Population jumped from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.
If man had stayed in Agrarian Stage human population would have been less than 2 billion today.
Agrarian Agriculture would have easily fed this population.....And in case the population did increase beyond sustainable level only the excess human population would have died, Not the entire human population.
Millions of other species, Forests, Rivers, Oceans and Atmosphere would have been in very good condition today.
Staying in Agrarian Stage was the solution.
Agrarian Society sustained for 10,000 years.....It would have sustained forever if it had not been replaced by Industrial Society.
The first switch over from Hunter_Gatherer Stage to Agrarian Stage may be excused but not the second switch over from Agrarian Stage to Industrial Stage.
When man switched over from Hunter_Gatherer to Agrarian Stage he was not aware of the small size of the planet and the limited resources it contained.....When the second switch over happened he was well aware of it.
Continuing with Industrial Activity in the present time when most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems have already been destroyed is Height of Insanity.
.
Are consumer goods food? Not always, but sometimes. Technically of course anything sold for consumption is a consumer good, but as a useless consumer good, it can be in the form of junk food, snacks etc.
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the_lyniezian
- Posts: 1125
- Joined: 17 Oct 2009, 11:40
- Location: South Bernicia
- Contact:
This is a fallacy.sushil_yadav wrote:.
The most dangerous and destructive industry in this world is Education Industry.
Education Industry is the source of all Industrial Activity that has destroyed environment....All other industries are by products of Education Industry.
Universities and Colleges are producing millions of Scientists, Engineers, Economists, MBA's, Business and Finance Graduates who are running and promoting all Industrial Activity in this world.
Education Industry is the Mother of all Industries.
Education Industry is the Mother of all Environmental Destruction.
All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run by Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education.
Education has destroyed environment.
School and University Education has destroyed environment.
Educated People are the biggest Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.
Schools and Universities must be closed down.....Immediately!!!
Billions of animals are being slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Industrial Farming of animals, Industrial Slaughter Houses, Refrigeration/ Transportation Industry which transports live and dead animals all over the world and Marketing Industry which sells meat.
Billions of fish are being killed by Industrial Fishing every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Industrial Ships which catch fish, Refrigeration/ Transportation Industry which transports fish all over the world and Marketing Industry which sells fish.
Millions of acres of Forests are being destroyed by Industrial Activity every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Marketing Industry, Construction Industry, Transportation Industry, Oil Drilling and Refining Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road networks which are destroying forests moment by moment.
Millions of wild animals in forests are being killed by Industrial Activity every day because of Education....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for the decimation of wild animals.
Millions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste is being added to environment every day because of Education.....Millions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste and eWaste are being added to environment every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for the poisoning of Rivers, Oceans, Land and Sky/ Atmosphere.
Millions of acres of Fertile Soil is being killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day because of Education....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for destruction of fertile soil by Construction Industry.
Education is responsible for millions of tonnes of Nuclear Waste produced by Nuclear Industry which will keep contaminating the planet with hazardous radioactivity for the next thousands of years.....This radioactivity will remain a potential source of cancer, death, multiple organ failures, physical and mental deformities for thousands of years....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Radioactivity produced by Nuclear Industry.
Education existed well before industrialisation. universities, though much fewer in number and the preserve of the elite, existed since the middle ages. Of course then they were more about theology and ancient philosophy than modern science.
But to suggest that just because we have used our knowledge and research to destructive ends, does not mean that has to be the case.
You will not get rid of anything "Immediately!!!" and there are far more things we should get rid of thus, than academic establishments.
Urban society has a function, and as I suggested before (and you are completely ignoring what I said to spout the same old rhetoric) the rural economy at present depends just as much on the urban one as the other way round. First we need to develop the means to produce enough food without mechanisation and the addition of all manner of chemical fertilisers, pesticides etc. and then we can think about preventing industry, and maybe lessening the size of urban population. You will not eliminate cities, which have existed for millenia. You may however realistically make them smaller. Prior to the industrial revolution many large cities were the size of what would now be considered a fairly medium sized town, and a small town was about the size of a modern village..
.
Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.
Environment has been destroyed by Urban Population, Urban Work and Urban Education.
All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run by Urban Population and Urban Education.
Animal Species searched for Food
Hunter_Gatherer Society searched for Food
Agrarian Society produced Food
Rural Industrial Society is producing Food
Urban Industrial Society is producing Thousands of Consumer Goods and Services.
Urban Industrial Society is the Anomaly.
.
.
The work of Urban Industrial Society is Extra, Unnecessary and Destructive.
Urban Work has destroyed environment.....Urban Work must stop immediately.
Production of Industrial Consumer Goods must stop immediately.
If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.
If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.
That is the worth of Urban Work in this world.
Industrial Activity for production of thousands of consumer goods and services must stop immediately....Millions of other species get only food from earth....The maximum that man can/ should get is food, clothing and shelter.
This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" societies....For millions of years "searching for food"/ "producing food" was the primary occupation on earth.
The whole society needs to be reorganized...Urban Dwellers have to be relocated in Rural Areas....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work....They can be given food for free in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work.
.