P/S Forums - a little negative feedback

[PowerswitchClive]

Don't get me wrong, I do think PO is a serious issue. I am however *very* skeptical of a fast-crash to Mad-Max world. A slow stagger into a severe recession & depression is much more likely (possibly with some spectacular stock market crashes on the way. But it will probably happen slowly enough that it will not seem all that surprising at the time. Peak oil and the "energy crisis", or whatever media friendly term it gets known by, will merely be part of common wisdom and the landscape. We will learn to live with frequent power and water cuts just like the poor bastards in Bagdad have, and the "home and garden" TV shows will all be about saving rainwater & greywater, composting toilets and and growing your own veggies

I have to agree that I think this is the most likely outcome for our future. In the same way this happened in Russia in the mid 90s, when people lost their savings and now no longer trust the system. I think the old USSR and Russia is a real good example of things to come.. They have had food shortages, with queues in the shops and supermarkets and little food to buy. Shortages of all goods most of the time and of course later on a complete fiancial crash, where many people lost, what little they had.
Many people grow there own food, life has been difficult for them, but life goes on.
The only wild card to peak oil and the future of course is war.

I dont agree - folk have to grasp this problem in all its breathtaking nastiness

I too think that straight talking is needed, but gently and bit by bit.
I do not think though that the place for this is the forums.....
People should come to the forums once they have some basic understanding of the issues and they want to talk about it....

[MacG]

Many of you will probably agree that one of the main barriers to raising PO awareness is a reluctance for people to accept such a huge and unpleasent concept. [snip] What do people think??

Well, I think there are stunning parallells to addiction, and PS is looking more and more like an AA meeting. Which is a Good Thing. The AA people use to claim that it is impossible and futile to try do convince an addict in denial about changing something - it is not until the addict realise on his/her own that he/she has a problem that AA can help them.

According to my humble opinion, we have an entire civilsation in deeep denial about its addiction to cheap oil, and we can not expect to break that denial. It is not until people realise on their own we can become an important part of their lives...

[kevincarter]

It is the second or third time I see someone comparing some topics with an AA meeting. I would like everybody to know that AA is based ONLY on surrendering to a higher power . If you don't belive me ask anyone who has been there. AA does not exactlly clean people by magic means but brainwashes them. And yes, that brainwash makes them quit drinking. I am not judging AA but saying that is by no means close to anything discussed here.

[fishertrop]

From my own personal point of view, I have never thought about taking anything away from the P/S forums (I love em!) only possibly adding something to them.

I am all for putting a sticky at the top of each general section, to introduce the section and ideas contain within, to newbie?s.

That sounds good to me.

I really feel that if you think it's a bad idea to introduce the uninitiated to the forums, the best policy is don?t!

Indeed I have learnt that valuable lesson!

But what if I used your statement above, replaceing "the forums" with "Peak Oil" ?

Perhaps it would be better to set up a section on the main site for people new to peak oil. We could take the information from the Essential Oil, free book and add some of the other material from the other sections on the site. I must admit, the main menu is very comprehensive, but perhaps we need to place a section for new comers at the top and make it obvious.

This sounds good

I just think the forums are the wrong place for this. None of the other forums seem to be bothered about this issue.

I take your point but:
a) Some people prefer to engage with others, to debate, rather than to read piles of paperwork. And the forums are only a click away from the front page.
b) Some of the other forums do have newbie sections of a sort but I wonder how many that don't end up turning away casual browsers who might have become valuable contributors given time.

I totally agree that:
a) These forums are the biz and we shouldn't take anything anyway from them
b) It's a big and nasty subject and that people are gunna have to get to grips with the nastyness sooner or later

but

I think there is room to more than we do currently to help make the unenlightened public that we talk about so much into valuable members of this forum.

[MacG]

It is the second or third time I see someone comparing some topics with an AA meeting. I would like everybody to know that AA is based ONLY on surrendering to a higher power . If you don't belive me ask anyone who has been there. AA does not exactlly clean people by magic means but brainwashes them. And yes, that brainwash makes them quit drinking. I am not judging AA but saying that is by no means close to anything discussed here.

Sorry, it was me all the times! I use AA because it is something which is known outside Sweden. The real parallell i think about is a Swedish society called "L?nkarna", which is comprised of alcoholics supporting eachother. They are very "down to the ground" and are not into brainwashing, but since they are not known outside Sweden I refrained from using that particular parallell.

I DO however think that there are stunning parallells between addiction to drugs and addiction to oil, and the same kind of denial is found in both cases, and I think it very difficult -if not impossible- to "break" the denial with forces from outside.

[kevincarter]

I DO however think that there are stunning parallells between addiction to drugs and addiction to oil,

Humm.. that's a interesting argument, never thought about that before.

And regarding to people getting "scared" about what is discussed here.

1st That is no reason to soften up people's opinions as they are all sincere thoughts, I could consider that if we were discussing the contents of a campaign.

2nd I'm sure is not that bad, and if someone has a different or opposite opinion he can say it here, maybe is that she has no arguments to overcome the mad-max scenario and that made her look away.

[DamianB]

It's a shame that fishertrop's friend left so quickly as I believe that these forums offer quite thoughtful and practical opinions and 'solutions'. The number of doom-and-gloom topics is small. Perhaps the person is not as open-minded and informed about peak oil as they think.

I think that there is a danger that having a sticky that gently leads newbies into the subject could be patronising and counter-productive. Of the people who've posted to the 'How did you find out about PO?' thread, most seem to have had some background knowledge before they came here and have largely taken things in their stride.

Perhaps fishertrop , you could link you friend to this topic to show her how sane and concerned for her that we all are?

[nancy]

For more on the denial thing - see the Forum on addiction

If you google oil and addiction you will find plenty about it. I quite liked this guy's rant -not bad when English is clearly not his first language.

My addiction to gasoline

[rs]

Is it possible that Fishertrop's friend may be back ?

It is a huge subject afterall, and maybe he/she needs some time to let sink in what they have just read. Maybe they'll now be more aware of PO related stuff in the mainstream, e.g. oil price article in the paper, or something on TV.

We all react in different ways. Myself, I jumped in the deep end. I wanted to know everything so I spent loads of time reading websites, buying books etc.. My other half didn't want to know at first. Now she is much more engaging and she doesn't roll her eyes anymore if I bring it up.

Small steps. Their knowledge will increase over time, either through their own interest or PO-related events.

[fishertrop]

It's a shame that fishertrop's friend left so quickly as I believe that these forums offer quite thoughtful and practical opinions and 'solutions'.

Me too, that's why I directed her here.

Perhaps the person is not as open-minded and informed about peak oil as they think.

That might be true, but also I think we should not under-estimate the turn-off power of "total collapse" theories to people who aren't fully up to speed with everything.

If only 5% of the already-small pool of liberal, open minded people are actually open-minded ENOUGH then what chance do we have of more wake-up?

I think that there is a danger that having a sticky that gently leads newbies into the subject could be patronising and counter-productive. Of the people who've posted to the 'How did you find out about PO?' thread, most seem to have had some background knowledge before they came here and have largely taken things in their stride.

Mostly I agree with you, I'm just wondering if there is a way to make the forums more of a turn-on rather than an off to certain types of newbies. Maybe there isn't.

Perhaps fishertrop , you could link you friend to this topic to show her how sane and concerned for her that we all are?

Yes, I haven't given up in this case, a different tack will work I think. But it has opened my mind to what might be happening with other newbies.

Is the following possible?
1) Person sees Powersitch flyer
2) Person visits P/S website
3) Person reads some intro stuff and is intersted
4) Person clicks on Forums link from front page
-- so far the person has done everything that we want and that people here are trying to achieve --
5) Person happens upon a discussion about total colaspe
6) Person thinks WHOA, this is too much, I'm off

If it is, do we want to try and make it less likely, or don't we really care - people will have to get to grips with the whole nasty truth however they can with no mollycodling from us ?

And if we want to do something to improve this situation, what can we do that has value?

Is it possible that Fishertrop's friend may be back ?

Yes, with some more promtping from me. But I'm concerned that many others would find this site on their own and be turned off and never return, with no input from anyone else.

You are right we all react in different ways - and this site is BRILLIANT for people who react in certain ways (like most of us) - but I wondering if we can do more to include those that initial react differently.

If we are spending time and effort crafting (pretty good!) flyers and even media adverts, then we are trying to achieve something right? The aim is to increase public awareness and wake more people up to PO, yes? And we appreciate that the flyers/ad's have to be pitched in a certain way in order to reach the most people, yes?

If so, then should we not be looking for ways to maximise the number of hard-won visters that become regulars?

I think that we should.

[DamianB]

And if we want to do something to improve this situation, what can we do that has value?

One suggestion immediately comes to mind - someone with more web/tech knowledge than I can evaluate for feasability: Record the first 10 page impressions each time a new IP is detected.

At least then we'll have some idea of what first-timers see when they come here. That might help hone the site's design?

[fishertrop]

Actually that IS a good idea!

We'll be having DODGY TAX AVOIDERS style uber-profiles of all guest shortly!

Joking aside, I do think it is a good idea - anyone know how achievable it is??

[beev]

I am quite new to using this forum, though I have known about it for a while. I have to say that I did (and still do) find it off-putting that there is so much negativity expressed here.

It is not just this subject. I have used other similar forums, and it is always a temptation for people to slip into the habit of talking negatively about any subject.

The challenge, perhaps, is to realise that we are here because we want to solve a problem, not spread negativity. Problem solving is about ideas, answers, teamwork - things like that. It is not about scaremongering (not sure if that's really a word!)

If someone has joined this forum, you can safely assume they are aware of the problem and aware that something needs to be done. They almost certainly don't need to hear people's random predictions about what terrible stuff is going to happen (it is impossible to predict the future).

If the answer to the problem really does lie in community involvement, there is no point in putting people off. There are far too many paranoid/negative people in the world, and sensible folk will (rightly) stay away from them.

The world will survive, as it has done for billions of years. Be positive and keep your sense of humour! Anything else is like shooting yourself in the foot.

[wayne72]

I recently directed an aquientence of mine to the PowerSwitch site and esp the forums.

This person is a free-thinking liberal, open to the concept of Peak Oil.

She was somewhat put off tho by her first encounter with the P/S forums and reluctant to return.

The cause of this? She happened to read a bunch of "total collapse" and "fighting in the streets" threads.

Whilst seasoned peakers know that such unpleasent subject should be discussed freely, we should also recognise the impact that such can have on new visitors to the site and the subject.

I wondered how many other toe-in-the-water visitors had been put off by the stark terror in some of the threads?

What can we do about this?

I was thinking that we could maybe create an "introduction" thread, or a newbie thread with a sticky that keeps it at the top of the first subject group, or even a subject area for introductions only (at the top of the forums page, so it's the first one in the list) maybe?

I'm sure there are many forum members who could kick off and contribute to threads aimed at introducing people further to the subject of P/O without turning them right off with a summary of Olduvai !

Many of you will probably agree that one of the main barriers to raising PO awareness is a reluctance for people to accept such a huge and unpleasent concept.

Furthermore you might agree that an easy introduction is more likely to lead to sustained interest rather than a bolt-of-lightening-to-the-head initial contact with the topic...

What do people think??

Whats the saying, "People can't deal with too much reality." Whatever Peak Oil brings is pure speculation. I've laid my cards on the table, i'm a pessimist. I'm under no illusion though, Peak Oil will take a while to create Chaos if it's not dealt with before hand.

Chaos is what will happen though if Peak Oil is left to just take its natural course. Regardless of how Open-Minded your friend his, she obviously doesn't like reality too much. Take the petrol demonstrations of 2001, my friend who is in the Police, told me, they were days away from sorting out food riots. This was brought about by demonstration and not depletion. Believe what you want, we're all allowed our views. There were also fisti-cuffs at pumps, these I did witness. So judge for yourself how easy or bumpy a ride it's going to be.

I like this site, I think it's the best Peak Oil site. The forums not crazy, in my view it's mostly optimistic. If you feel it's better to lose Pessimists like myself, I prefer I was banned! It would neither offend me or stop me from viewing the site as a whole.

I think it may good for the site to go in the direction the owners believe is not only best for this site but for Peak Oil awareness too.

[fishertrop]

My point was not that PO has some potentially VERY bleak effects, it was that in order to get certains types of people to take it seriously, to look at it in depth, you have to pave the way - jumping stright to lifeaftertheoilcrash.com doesn't work for eveyone.

People who HAVE taken PO seriously and done a lot of research, have become well informed, can choose to skoff at the nay-sayers who may be in for a rather rude awaking in the long run, but does that help us collectively in the UK ?

IMO the UK would be best served by everyone getting to grips with the whole of the subject in a sensible and factual way - my original post was discussing how best this might be achieved (and how turn-off might be avoided).