Deer plague

[emordnilap]

Reintroduce the wolf and the lynx where enough habitat allows.

Now we're talking. And the bear. And the boar (that's extinct in Ireland - don't know about the UK). That'd weed out the squeamish.

[UndercoverElephant]

I'm just an argumentative git.

At least you have arguments, as opposed to those who fart and run.

I hope that's not directed at me.

I don't see any point in arguing with you about this, E. It comes down to an ethical disagreement that we're unlikely to resolve.

[UndercoverElephant]

Tell me, were either of you part of a debating society at any time?

No. In my case it is a combination of having spent most of my adult life thinking about and talking to people about the whole gamut of issues that keep coming up on Powerswitch - so I've had most of the arguments before - and of having studied philosophy, which forces you to think hard about the structure of natural language arguments.

Basically, I love both arguing/debating (because I learn stuff) and writing (because it's fun, and I'm good at it.)

[emordnilap]

I'm just an argumentative git.

At least you have arguments, as opposed to those who fart and run.

I hope that's not directed at me.

No, not in the slightest. Far from it.

[Little John]

Reintroduce the wolf and the lynx where enough habitat allows.

Nice idea. Won't happen this side of the great die-off unfortunately.

Meanwhile, we have a deer population to manage....

[peaceful_life]

Reintroduce the wolf and the lynx where enough habitat allows.

Nice idea. Won't happen this side of the great die-off unfortunately.

Meanwhile, we have a deer population to manage....

Never say never eh.

Meanwhile.....all that meat to hold off the die off.

They'll be shot.

[woodburner]

At least you have arguments, as opposed to those who fart and run.

I hope that's not directed at me.

No, not in the slightest. Far from it.

It was me. I write short replies because that's all that's needed in most cases.

[woodburner]

Land is never "unproductive" (or "derelict" while we're about it), it is just not making money or giving other benefit when exploited by humans.

The deer may be in such numbers that they are adversely affecting other wildlife, but something near a balance would be achieved by using, say, wolves. That approach is only a problem if humans want it all for themselves.

Completely agree with this in principle.

However, since wolves are extremely unlikely in practice in the short to medium term to be re-introduced into the British countryside, we still have the problem of too many deers destroying to much of the pathetic remains of what used to be a self-sustaining eco system. That problem can only be addressed by reducing the population size. If not by wolves, then how?

Shooting, then eating.

There was mention earlier of the rights of animals (deer in this case) to procreate. Even the deer don't agree with that. A few stags make sure they do all the bonking of all available females, and no one else gets a look in. While the stags are sorting out who is going to be super-stud for the year, it's possible some get killed.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Shooting, then eating.

There was mention earlier of the rights of animals (deer in this case) to procreate. Even the deer don't agree with that. A few stags make sure they do all the bonking of all available females, and no one else gets a look in. While the stags are sorting out who is going to be super-stud for the year, it's possible some get killed.

Very well put.

[kenneal - lagger]

A few sneaky males also jump in while the super studs are fighting things out between themselves, apparently.

[Catweazle]

I assumed that PS members would be in favour of natural free-range meat, who'd have thought they would want to pump it full of contraceptives.

Shoot them, cook them, eat them. Think of it as farming without fences if that helps.

[Tarrel]

Think of it as farming without fences if that helps.

Yes, although unlike farming, at least the deer have a fighting chance - until we start using machine-guns, that is.

[biffvernon]

Let's hear it for the bluebells the bank vole and the woodmouse.

Over the past century, increases in both density and distribution of deer species in the Northern Hemisphere have resulted in major changes in ground flora and undergrowth vegetation of woodland habitats, and consequentially the animal communities that inhabit them. In this study, we tested whether recovery in the vegetative habitat of a woodland due to effective deer management (from a peak of 0.4–1.5 to <0.17 deer per ha) had translated to the small mammal community as an example of a higher order cascade effect. We compared deer-free exclosures with neighboring open woodland using capture-mark-recapture (CMR) methods to see if the significant difference in bank vole (Myodes glareolus) and wood mouse (Apodemus sylvaticus) numbers between these environments from 2001–2003 persisted in 2010. Using the multi-state Robust Design method in program MARK we found survival and abundance of both voles and mice to be equivalent between the open woodland and the experimental exclosures with no differences in various metrics of population structure (age structure, sex composition, reproductive activity) and individual fitness (weight), although the vole population showed variation both locally and temporally. This suggests that the vegetative habitat - having passed some threshold of complexity due to lowered deer density - has allowed recovery of the small mammal community, although patch dynamics associated with vegetation complexity still remain. We conclude that the response of small mammal communities to environmental disturbance such as intense browsing pressure can be rapidly reversed once the disturbing agent has been removed and the vegetative habitat is allowed to increase in density and complexity, although we encourage caution, as a source/sink dynamic may emerge between old growth patches and the recently disturbed habitat under harsh conditions.

Just saying.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0031404

[Little John]

Let's hear it for the bluebells the bank vole and the woodmouse.

Over the past century, increases in both density and distribution of deer species in the Northern Hemisphere have resulted in major changes in ground flora and undergrowth vegetation of woodland habitats, and consequentially the animal communities that inhabit them. In this study, we tested whether recovery in the vegetative habitat of a woodland due to effective deer management (from a peak of 0.4–1.5 to <0.17 deer per ha) had translated to the small mammal community as an example of a higher order cascade effect. We compared deer-free exclosures with neighboring open woodland using capture-mark-recapture (CMR) methods to see if the significant difference in bank vole (Myodes glareolus) and wood mouse (Apodemus sylvaticus) numbers between these environments from 2001–2003 persisted in 2010. Using the multi-state Robust Design method in program MARK we found survival and abundance of both voles and mice to be equivalent between the open woodland and the experimental exclosures with no differences in various metrics of population structure (age structure, sex composition, reproductive activity) and individual fitness (weight), although the vole population showed variation both locally and temporally. This suggests that the vegetative habitat - having passed some threshold of complexity due to lowered deer density - has allowed recovery of the small mammal community, although patch dynamics associated with vegetation complexity still remain. We conclude that the response of small mammal communities to environmental disturbance such as intense browsing pressure can be rapidly reversed once the disturbing agent has been removed and the vegetative habitat is allowed to increase in density and complexity, although we encourage caution, as a source/sink dynamic may emerge between old growth patches and the recently disturbed habitat under harsh conditions.

Just saying.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0031404

I'm not sure what you are saying B

[kenneal - lagger]

I'm not sure what you are saying B

Not to put words into Biff's mouth but a reduction in deer numbers would increase the biodiversity of our environment, I think.