AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

[JavaScriptDonkey]

I don't even think it sinks as far as racism.

I have yet to hear people complain about immigration of black skinned people born in the USA or France.
People complain about immigrants from countries with divergent cultures such as Somalia and those immigrants happen to be black. I honestly don't think it wouldn't matter if they were white or purple.

My view is that it doesn't matter where you come from - we are full.

If I am forced to accept immigration I would rather it from cultures that broadly share values with my own so that is most of Europe, the Common Wealth and large swathes of Asia.

[UndercoverElephant]

I don't even think it sinks as far as racism.

People complain about immigrants from countries with divergent cultures such as Somalia and those immigrants happen to be black. I honestly don't think it wouldn't matter if they were white or purple.

It matters to J2M.

[the_lyniezian]

If I am forced to accept immigration I would rather it from cultures that broadly share values with my own so that is most of Europe, the Common Wealth and large swathes of Asia.

Except much of the immigration in terms of numbers seems to be from those very places, due to EU rights to live and work anywhere in the EU if you are a citizen of the same.

Previously much of it was with the Commonwealth/former Empire.

I think the trick is; first allow this country to allow itself full control of its borders again, and then we can implement sensible policies. Ideally other EU nations should do likewise but it will probably end up with us just leaving the EU. We can decide who gets in based on things like ability to speak English, whether they will bring useful skills and that they don't bring with them certain ideologies we don't like (America has for a long time done this with Communists for example).

Hopefully some of the more draconian treatment of, say, foreign spouses and asylum seekers (other than potential radical Islamists &c.) could be lessened then.

[AndySir]

The BNP's strongest base here is Scotland is in the south side of Glasgow, where it is Eastern European immigration that is the target. So I guess the BNP aren't racist either. They are equal opportunities haters of other cultures.

[UndercoverElephant]

The BNP's strongest base here is Scotland is in the south side of Glasgow, where it is Eastern European immigration that is the target. So I guess the BNP aren't racist either.

No, this is not fair debating tactics. The BNP would agree with some of what I and others have said here about immigration in general, and about cultural problems. Some of those BNP members, probably most of them, are also racists. You are now trying to suggest that because some BNP members agree with these other things, "you guess they aren't racist either." What is your point, AndySir?

What you are trying to do is bundle up several different things the BNP have said, and then suggest that anyone who agrees with any of them is no better than a racist, or something along those lines.

The BNP have also specified the most comprehensive response to Peak Oil of any political party in the UK, including the Green Party. If I agree with the BNP policy on Peak Oil, does that also mean I'm a racist?

We have to deal with the issues as they are, and the reality is that BNP supporters have a range of beliefs about different things, and it just so happens that the average, left-leaning member of this forum probably finds themselves in agreement with some of these things (on sustainability grounds, or just on "facing reality" grounds) and yet completely appalled by others. The truth is that even though I would never even consider voting for the BNP, I do agree with some of the things they say.

And no, calling people who are anti-eastern-european-immigration "racist" is not accurate either. You can't be "racist" against members of your own race. The correct word for this is "xenophobic."

J2M is both. He's racist and xenophobic. The BNP is largely racist, and completely xenophobic.

[RenewableCandy]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 70718.html

America's Baby Bust

The nation's falling fertility rate is the root cause of many of our problems. And it's only getting worse.

FFS

We'll need smart pronatalist policies, too. The government cannot persuade Americans to have children they do not want, but it can help them to have the children they do want.

AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Yes, more babies. The answer to all of our problems.

Actually, the USA and Canada should be attracting the immigrants. They've got room (plus energy plus minerals etc...) enough. At least, compared with us, they have.

It's come to something when even my other 1/2, who is an immigrant, says he thinks the UK might be being a bit lax.

[UndercoverElephant]

There is no spare room in the UK. Not even at Dungeness.

[biffvernon]

There is at the moment but there won't be when we get some sea level rise. Stop worrying about the UK and start looking at the big picture - Planet Earth. We have an existential crisis for the whole human race and one of the early pinch points will be all those millions who live close to sea level - half of Bangla Desh, many of the most densely inhabited parts of China, several of the worlds largest cities.... and we're fretting about a bit of inter-Europe migration. Get real folks. Borders are going to have to crumble.

[RenewableCandy]

You're right. Trillions of people are going to lose the land they live on. About one-and-a-half of them speak English. And THEY'RE ALL GOING TO COME AND LIVE IN LONDON. Next Tuesday. Oh yes and they're all either Islamic terrorists or vatican-approved paedophiles.

I scare myself sometimes.

[UndercoverElephant]

There is at the moment...

Not without encroaching on a globally unique nature reserve. Dungeness exists because it is the place where the wave-power that has been focused through the straights of Dover meets the wave-power that has been channeled up the Channel from the Atlantic. It is the final resting place of the flint pebbles that started their lives in both sets of Downs, driven by longshore drift in converging directions which have to meet somewhere.

And you are suggesting we home immigrants there???

[UndercoverElephant]

Stop worrying about the UK and start looking at the big picture - Planet Earth. We have an existential crisis for the whole human race...

I thought you didn't do religion.

and one of the early pinch points will be all those millions who live close to sea level - half of Bangla Desh, many of the most densely inhabited parts of China, several of the worlds largest cities.... and we're fretting about a bit of inter-Europe migration. Get real folks. Borders are going to have to crumble.

OK, I'm going to get real. The UK, having played a central role in the past 400 years of human history, is now heading rapidly towards obscurity in terms of influence and relevance. Forget Bangladesh. We have problems of our own - problems they don't, like having an economy that is totally dependent on an ethically and actually bankrupt "financial services sector."

If you're worried about the existential crisis facing humanity, then we need to talk about philosophy instead.

[jonny2mad]

There is at the moment but there won't be when we get some sea level rise. Stop worrying about the UK and start looking at the big picture - Planet Earth. We have an existential crisis for the whole human race and one of the early pinch points will be all those millions who live close to sea level - half of Bangla Desh, many of the most densely inhabited parts of China, several of the worlds largest cities.... and we're fretting about a bit of inter-Europe migration. Get real folks. Borders are going to have to crumble.

Get rid of a territorial animal species borders, jumble them up and they will just seperate out into tribes and make more.

So yes I agree borders will have to crumble as the people controlling the borders we have now wont control them, yes I fully agree thats happening biff .

Where we differ is you think that will lead to your idea of eutopia mankind working in harmony, I think mad max .

So sea level rises human waves of people rush to high ground not enough food, three days from anarchy as lenin said darwinian tribal war worldwide

[AndySir]

No, this is not fair debating tactics. The BNP would agree with some of what I and others have said here about immigration in general, and about cultural problems. Some of those BNP members, probably most of them, are also racists. You are now trying to suggest that because some BNP members agree with these other things, "you guess they aren't racist either." What is your point, AndySir?

Oh, for pity's sake it's not complicated. Let me break it down:
- the BNP use hatred of and prejudice against other cultures to garner votes.

-This appears to occur regardless of the culture's genetic make up / melatonin levels / funny taste in hats or the other silly things that have been suggested as part of an extraordinarily narrow definition of racism.

- This is Not A Good Thing.

- Possibly worth considering prejudice against a group based on culture is just as bad as one based on genetics. In fact, there's probably no real difference.

- No, not even if you claim that somebody's culture is their own choice. Especially if you're the same person who, in another thread and with great indignation, asked 'who is this 'we' we're talking about?' when the conversation turned to our crimes in Empire.

What you have ascribed to me appears to be a kind of composition or division fallacy. Don't do that.

[jonny2mad]

No, this is not fair debating tactics. The BNP would agree with some of what I and others have said here about immigration in general, and about cultural problems. Some of those BNP members, probably most of them, are also racists. You are now trying to suggest that because some BNP members agree with these other things, "you guess they aren't racist either." What is your point, AndySir?

Oh, for pity's sake it's not complicated. Let me break it down:
- the BNP use hatred of and prejudice against other cultures to garner votes.

-This appears to occur regardless of the culture's genetic make up / melatonin levels / funny taste in hats or the other silly things that have been suggested as part of an extraordinarily narrow definition of racism.

- This is Not A Good Thing.

- Possibly worth considering prejudice against a group based on culture is just as bad as one based on genetics. In fact, there's probably no real difference.

- No, not even if you claim that somebody's culture is their own choice. Especially if you're the same person who, in another thread and with great indignation, asked 'who is this 'we' we're talking about?' when the conversation turned to our crimes in Empire.

What you have ascribed to me appears to be a kind of composition or division fallacy. Don't do that.

doesn't everyone have a preferance for a certain culture

[Little John]

No, this is not fair debating tactics. The BNP would agree with some of what I and others have said here about immigration in general, and about cultural problems. Some of those BNP members, probably most of them, are also racists. You are now trying to suggest that because some BNP members agree with these other things, "you guess they aren't racist either." What is your point, AndySir?

Oh, for pity's sake it's not complicated. Let me break it down:
- the BNP use hatred of and prejudice against other cultures to garner votes.

-This appears to occur regardless of the culture's genetic make up / melatonin levels / funny taste in hats or the other silly things that have been suggested as part of an extraordinarily narrow definition of racism.

- This is Not A Good Thing.

- Possibly worth considering prejudice against a group based on culture is just as bad as one based on genetics. In fact, there's probably no real difference.

- No, not even if you claim that somebody's culture is their own choice. Especially if you're the same person who, in another thread and with great indignation, asked 'who is this 'we' we're talking about?' when the conversation turned to our crimes in Empire.

What you have ascribed to me appears to be a kind of composition or division fallacy. Don't do that.

The "we" quote can be ascribed to me. Tell me, do you consider it an unnaceptable cultural prejudice to view a cultural norm that, for instance, condones and, even, sanctions the genital mutilation of women? Or, to take another instance, condones or, even, sanctions the murder of religious apostates? I ask because I'm just wondering just how far your culturally relativistic ideal extends. If you do consider such views as evidence of unacceptable cultural prejudice, then guess I must congratulate you on your philosophical consistency and also inform you we have nothing useful left to communicate to one another. On the other hand, if you do not consider such a views as being unacceptably prejudicial, irrespective of whether you personally agree with them or not, then I am bound to ask you where you draw the line and specifically what criteria do you use when drawing it? I'm quite happy to outline the criteria I use. But, then why would you want to ask, since you already think you know?

I'm expecting a "non answer" of course. But, then, I am always ready to be pleasantly surprised.