Launch of The immigrant War

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Blue Peter
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Post by Blue Peter »

And, just for fun, I've just seen this on a (scholarly discussion board):
Has anyone ever come across a reference to support the claim by von Liebig that the English removed bones from battlefields on the Continent to turn into phosphate fertilizer?
Any advice on where I might search? I have copied the quote below...
It is interesting, and political (Marx wrote some similar ideas at the same time).
Is this to be taken literally? Thanks in advance. Best, Amy Kohn ask130@columbia.edu

"England is robbing all other countries of the conditions of their fertility. Already, in her eagerness for bones, she has turned up the battlefields of Leipzig and Waterloo, and of the Crimea; already from the catacombs of Sicily she has carried away the skeletons of many successive generations. Annually she removes from the shores of other countries to her own the manurial equivalent of three millions and a half of men, whom she takes from us the means of supporting, and squanders down her sewers to the sea. Like a vampire she hangs upon the neck of Europe, nay, of the entire world, and sucks the heartblood from nations without a thought of justice towards them, without a shadow of lasting advantage for herself."

Guilty as charged, I think :shock:


Peter.
Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the seconds to hours?
Little John

Post by Little John »

Blue Peter wrote:
stevecook172001 wrote:
biffvernon wrote:What we need to look at is why the UK is such a desirable place and why other places are so undesirable. We've been robbing the rest of the world for centuries - hardly surprising that we now need to give something back.
What's this "we".
Come on Steve. We had an Empire upon which the sun never set. We weren't there for the good of the peoples living there, we were there for what we could get out of it. And thanks to our hanging onto the coat-tails of the new Emperor (the US), and having a very big banking system, we continue to take more than our share from the world.

This doesn't mean that everything we did/do is evil. This wasn't a smash and grab affair, but a long-term transfer of stuff to us, which requires that we set up an infrastructure. And sure, some of "the natives" will benefit from this infrastructure. But, to use a metaphor, it still means that we went into someone else's house and arranged things so that we get first dibs on all that's theirs,


Peter.
No, I'm on about the "we" as in the implication that I had anything to do with that. I didn't. Nor did the vast majority of normal working people save for those who were forcibly conscripted into the service of those who did. For the vast majority of the proletariat for the vast majority of the time, "we" were/are simply forced to dance to whatever tune is played for us. You can keep your bourgeois guilt to yourself thanks.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

I used the word 'we' to mean me, Steve, and all the other citizens of the industrial world's nations that appear to be attractive to immigrants from poorer parts.

If the world were to be a more equal place then there would not be a tendency for grossly asymmetrical net migration, at least until global warming tips the balance.

I would like to live in a world in which everybody can chose where they live, Lincolnshire or Yorkshire, Timbuctu or Ulum Batar.
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

Blue Peter wrote:
emordnilap wrote: Each of the 'we's can be taken slightly differently.
Of course. It's a bulletin board post, not a scholarly article :wink:
What I meant was which 'we' is Steve referring to, which he's answered since - just one of them specifically, though no doubt he has opinions on the other two, too.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

I don't think we have done half as much bad to Africa as Africans have. It was Africans who started the slave trade by selling war prisoners firstly to each other and then to Arab slavers who then sold them on to Europeans. It is African now who are shafting each other to gain wealth: take a look at Mugabe and his ruling party in Zimbabwe as the latest and most obvious instance.

What colonialists did in the past was in the past when we had a different moral compass. Things change, hopefully for the better, and so does our moral compass. As long as we learn and live by what we have learned I don't think we can, or should, go on chest beating and chanting "mea culpa" all our lives.

I do think that we should continue with aid to countries from where we get our immigration from because it is a lot cheaper to make living conditions good in the immigrants' place of origin than it is to put them up here or try to repatriate them. Our aid should go towards small projects designed to give individuals a living rather than through governments who grab it and invest it in palaces or Swiss banks.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

It was African who started this whole human race thing that seems to have screwed up the planet so badly. Blame the Africans!
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Oxenstierna
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Post by Oxenstierna »

What's this "we".
I second that. Please don't presume to speak for me.

My ancestors worked down the mines or were domestic servants. My grandparents died without having owned a square inch of land. They were not robbers.

As for the subject of immigration - or migration as the media classes like to call it - I live in an inner city and I have noticed that those who are most sanguine about the topic are those who live in the leafy suburbs or the countryside.
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jonny2mad
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Post by jonny2mad »

biffvernon wrote:I used the word 'we' to mean me, Steve, and all the other citizens of the industrial world's nations that appear to be attractive to immigrants from poorer parts.

If the world were to be a more equal place then there would not be a tendency for grossly asymmetrical net migration, at least until global warming tips the balance.

I would like to live in a world in which everybody can chose where they live, Lincolnshire or Yorkshire, Timbuctu or Ulum Batar.
hmmm biff people are not equal some are clever some are stupid, some work hard some are lazy, if you have a continent where the mean IQ is 67 and another continent where the mean IQ is 100, your going to have vastly different modes of life .

To be able to invent something new you need to be able to have original thought, if your mean IQ is 100 your going to have quite a lot of people with a IQ of 140+ mensa quality , with a mean IQ of 67 you may have some people with a IQ of 100 that we would consider normal intelligence

Intelligence is mainly inherited, the only way you can make europe and africa equal would be by breeding which will lower IQ in europe,

Your dream of a equal world may come true biff, only thing is it will be more stupid, with less new inventions more crime and poverty .
"What causes more suffering in the world than the stupidity of the compassionate?"Friedrich Nietzsche

optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

I'm not sure that Africans have a lower IQ than Europeans, or anyone else for that matter. IQ tests have been shown to be cultural to an extent, i.e. they are designed for a certain way of thinking, which is cultural or the way that you have been bought up to think. If you have been bought up to think in a different way another culture's IQ tests can be pretty incomprehensible.

Western children are bought up with high technology, are exposed to it from a very young age and hence accept and own it through life. If you are not bought up with that technology it is harder work to assimilate it. Again it's cultural.

My daughter and son-in-law worked with pygmies in Uganda for an aid agency as part of their Uni course. The pygmy had been thrown out of the rain forest where they had always lived because it had been designated a National Park. They had been given some land to cultivate and a small building to use as a school.

One day there was a phone call to say that the rainwater harvesting on the building had broken and could they fix it. My son-in-law went out to see what was wrong and immediately spotted what was broken. The wind had blown the shoe on the rain water pipe which directed the water into the butt away from the butt so all the rain was ending up on the ground. He simply twisted the shoe back so that the water poured into the butt again.

He was hailed as a genius by the pygmies because they didn't know how to fix it. In our culture it was simple and obvious. To the pygmies, who were used to living in shelters made from sticks and leaves, it was high technology and outside their knowledge. If my SIL, or any of us for that matter, were to go into the rain forest we wouldn't have lasted a week.

Who's culture is superior? Neither is superior it's just that one is more fitting for certain conditions than the other. When TSHTF the pygmies will be in a better position than us as they can just slip back into their old way of life, living off the land, assuming they can still remember their culture that is. Our culture is only as good as the fuel that powers it and there could well be a problem there in the near future.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

kenneal - lagger wrote:I'm not sure that Africans have a lower IQ than Europeans, or anyone else for that matter. IQ tests have been shown to be cultural to an extent, i.e. they are designed for a certain way of thinking, which is cultural or the way that you have been bought up to think. If you have been bought up to think in a different way another culture's IQ tests can be pretty incomprehensible.

Western children are bought up with high technology, are exposed to it from a very young age and hence accept and own it through life. If you are not bought up with that technology it is harder work to assimilate it. Again it's cultural.

My daughter and son-in-law worked with pygmies in Uganda for an aid agency as part of their Uni course. The pygmy had been thrown out of the rain forest where they had always lived because it had been designated a National Park. They had been given some land to cultivate and a small building to use as a school.

One day there was a phone call to say that the rainwater harvesting on the building had broken and could they fix it. My son-in-law went out to see what was wrong and immediately spotted what was broken. The wind had blown the shoe on the rain water pipe which directed the water into the butt away from the butt so all the rain was ending up on the ground. He simply twisted the shoe back so that the water poured into the butt again.

He was hailed as a genius by the pygmies because they didn't know how to fix it. In our culture it was simple and obvious. To the pygmies, who were used to living in shelters made from sticks and leaves, it was high technology and outside their knowledge. If my SIL, or any of us for that matter, were to go into the rain forest we wouldn't have lasted a week.

Who's culture is superior? Neither is superior it's just that one is more fitting for certain conditions than the other. When TSHTF the pygmies will be in a better position than us as they can just slip back into their old way of life, living off the land, assuming they can still remember their culture that is. Our culture is only as good as the fuel that powers it and there could well be a problem there in the near future.
The difficulty in devising a accurate test of intelligence dose not lead to the conclusion that intelligence between groups are equal. Take any group brought up in the same culture and apply what ever test you choose and there will be winners and losers and if you test the parents of the winners and losers most but not all will be in the same group as their children. So on average genetics matter and help to determine average intelligence and if you follow genetics out any distance you will be talking race and be very politically incorrect. Take a group of winners and transport them into a different culture and they will quickly assimilate to that culture and succeed a group of losers will be losers no matter where they find themselves. Perhaps race to race and culture to culture it is a matter of the ratio between winners and losers. A country with sixty percent losers would be hard pressed to prosper today when there is no need of a serf class.
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RenewableCandy
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Post by RenewableCandy »

Anyone here ever done an IQ test? I once did one for the laugh. One of the questions had a load of anagrams and it was a matter of finding which one *wasn't* the name of a type of aeroplane. Some of them were olde WWII planes, the sort RenewableFrere had in his model collection at the time. So I got the right answer.

Many years later I remember reading that "research has found" women from mixed families (i.e. with brothers) were on average brighter than other women. You do wonder sometimes.

IQ goes down if you so much as miss a meal or drink less than 90% the water you need. This probably explains any lack of intelligence "found" anywhere in the 1/3 world. What happens to your mum between conception and birth can be a showstopper too.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

IQ tests measure the ability to do IQ tests.

That's about it.

Creativity, empathy and a whole load of other vital traits do not get much of a look in.
Little John

Post by Little John »

RenewableCandy wrote:Anyone here ever done an IQ test? I once did one for the laugh. One of the questions had a load of anagrams and it was a matter of finding which one *wasn't* the name of a type of aeroplane. Some of them were olde WWII planes, the sort RenewableFrere had in his model collection at the time. So I got the right answer.

Many years later I remember reading that "research has found" women from mixed families (i.e. with brothers) were on average brighter than other women. You do wonder sometimes.

IQ goes down if you so much as miss a meal or drink less than 90% the water you need. This probably explains any lack of intelligence "found" anywhere in the 1/3 world. What happens to your mum between conception and birth can be a showstopper too.
I have done many IQ tests as well as a significant battery of other cognitive tests. They were part of my degree.

To address each of your points in turn:
One of the questions had a load of anagrams and it was a matter of finding which one *wasn't* the name of a type of aeroplane. Some of them were olde WWII planes, the sort RenewableFrere had in his model collection at the time. So I got the right answer.
This is merely evidence of a badly designed test. Or, rather it is badly designed if the intention was to measure people who did not share the cultural influences encoded in the test. That is the reason why, over time, there has been a steady move to less and less culturally bound tests. This has led to tests employing abstract, non-linguistic patterns. A common one is the Raven's matrices test.
Many years later I remember reading that "research has found" women from mixed families (i.e. with brothers) were on average brighter than other women. You do wonder sometimes.
This may be due to environmental influences on IQ. IQ tests measure IQ. They do not measure the genetic basis of IQ. Or, at least they can be used to investigate that. But only if they are used on mono zygotic twins who were separated at birth.
IQ goes down if you so much as miss a meal or drink less than 90% the water you need. This probably explains any lack of intelligence "found" anywhere in the 1/3 world. What happens to your mum between conception and birth can be a showstopper too.
Again, all true. Again, IQ tests measure IQ, not the basis of IQ. As a matter of documented researched, though, the heritability of IQ has been consistently shown to be over 70%. That is to say, heritability studies with mono zygotic twin studies has shown that 70% of the variance of IQ can be put down to genetic variance in a given population. This, of course, leaves 30% of the variance explainable by environmental factors. The key point here is that the test is carried out on a given population who are all subject to similar environmental conditions. Which leads to my next point.

As for the difference between the average IQ in, say, Western Europe as compared to central Africa, there is indeed a significant difference and it would be intellectually dishonest to deny it. It's approximately a 15 to 20 IQ point difference which is not small. However, the confounding variable of the stark average difference in environmental conditions for humans in these two continents means that it is impossible to state that the difference in IQ is down to genetic differences between people of African Negroid descent and those of European Caucasian descent.

Nevertheless, there have been some limited studies (and therefore less reliable) that have shown a similar though far less extreme difference between these two racial groups in Western Europe. This difference has been shown to be fairly consistent whichever European country you care to make the comparison in. This finding does, at least, lead to a possible hypothesis that there may exist some limited genetic basis for such a difference.

However, I should stress, there is a significant overlap of measured IQ between these populations such that the average difference is largely a function of the extremes of each distribution.

I have put all of the above on record simply as bald researched knowledge. I make no moral, political or philosophical point by its mention. It simply stands as it is. As unpalatable to many as it may be.

I should also make clear that IQ, as Biffernon has already pointed out, is only one of a myriad of cognitive traits. A very narrow one, in fact. Perhaps a way to describe it might be to say that is is a narrowly defined set of cognitive traits that have proved to be useful in industrially advanced societies and so have been grouped together into a single measure of "IQ". Many other cognitive traits that may be just as useful or, even, more useful in other environments are not measured by an IQ test. But, then, the designers of such tests would not (or should not) claim they are.
Last edited by Little John on 16 Feb 2013, 21:45, edited 4 times in total.
Little John

Post by Little John »

biffvernon wrote:IQ tests measure the ability to do IQ tests.

That's about it.

Creativity, empathy and a whole load of other vital traits do not get much of a look in.
As a matter of researched and voluminously documented fact, IQ tests measure far more than merely the ability to do IQ tests, though a part of the measured performance on them will of course be ascribable to that.

As for creativity, empathy and other non-IQ-specific cognitive traits, pure IQ tests are not and never were designed to directly measure those traits. That does not negate what they do measure though.
Last edited by Little John on 16 Feb 2013, 21:42, edited 1 time in total.
vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

How do you define intelligence? Is it the ability to solve a problem you have never seen before? Cleverness if you will. Or is it using your memory to bring up possibilities to apply to the problem? In that case what you have in memory is a key factor. Someone that has read widely and has experienced trying to solve problems will score higher then someone that is illiterate and spends his days on hoeing a long row. Hence the reason for prep schools.
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