Let's hope it doesn't end up like this!

[the_lyniezian]

Hey, don't knock the Amish.....

Indeed, in terms of simple living and making do with things which need not require a lot of fossil fuels (not always), they have a lot to teach us. As well as how to do it without resorting to violence.

Though perhaps without the ridiculous over-the-top legalism, like the minutiae of how you dress and even that you can't ride a bicycle in many Old Order communities.

I've been busy sewing a whole new wardrobe of clothes based on some Amish patterns I recently purchased off the internet. They're bloody brilliant to sew. The patterns are fantastically functional and simple to make. Largely, I suspect, cos the women from that community have to make all of them, so they have done away with all unecessary and time consuming frills. All wrapped up, of course, in religious doctrine. It's funny how initially functionally driven behavioural practices end up being co-opted by a prevailing religion. The obvious one's being incest avoidance, not eating pork in hot climates etc.....

You have to remember that religious/faith-based ideals are largely understood as being an understanding of the right and proper way to live, anyway- so of course they will include practical concerns. It is worth pointing out there is more to it than that, and the Amish have a whole philosophy of simplicity and not being ostentatious in how you dress (pity their idea of what this means is at least a century old in its outworking, and often achieves the opposite effect). Often of course their concerns are about holding on to this ideology and their traditions as opposed to practicality.

[Tarrel]

I was fascinated to discover that young male Amish are allowed (or even encouraged) to get a car and do with it what your typical American teenager would - to get it out of their system, I suppose.

Though perhaps without the ridiculous over-the-top legalism, like the minutiae of how you dress and even that you can't ride a bicycle in many Old Order communities.

The Amish must find it very hard to protect their way of life, being surrounded by the ultimate hedonistic, consumption-based culture that is the rest of the US. This must be especially so given the media interest in the Amish culture over the past few years. (I blame Harrison Ford!)

It could be argued that having an absolute, rigid rule-set is one way of achieving that protection. The more black-and-white the rules, the less chance of a slow creep away from their value-system. On the other hand, such a rigid rule-set could result in an explosive rejection of those rules (e.g. revolution or leaving the community). Perhaps that's what religion, for all its pitfalls, has achieved in other cultures in the past.

For an example of slow creep, look at UK society. Many of the values we held as important, and normal, a few decades ago are now regarded as anachronistic, politically incorrect or just plain weird. The "devaluation" of those values has coincided with a dramatic reduction in religious participation over the same time-frame. Coincidence, or cause and effect? I guess we all have our own views on that one.

[the_lyniezian]

I was fascinated to discover that young male Amish are allowed (or even encouraged) to get a car and do with it what your typical American teenager would - to get it out of their system, I suppose.

Generally part of what's known as rumspringa- meaning "running around" in Pennsylvania Dutch. Basically the adolescent years in between leaving school (which they do at 14) and getting baptised into the Amish church (18 or later). What is permitted (or whether it exists at all) varies between Amish communities and sub-sects, and how strict the parents are. Basically the idea is until you join the church of your own free will, you aren't bound by its precepts, so unlike some sects there is freedom of choice.

Though perhaps without the ridiculous over-the-top legalism, like the minutiae of how you dress and even that you can't ride a bicycle in many Old Order communities.

The Amish must find it very hard to protect their way of life, being surrounded by the ultimate hedonistic, consumption-based culture that is the rest of the US. This must be especially so given the media interest in the Amish culture over the past few years. (I blame Harrison Ford!)

It could be argued that having an absolute, rigid rule-set is one way of achieving that protection. The more black-and-white the rules, the less chance of a slow creep away from their value-system. On the other hand, such a rigid rule-set could result in an explosive rejection of those rules (e.g. revolution or leaving the community). Perhaps that's what religion, for all its pitfalls, has achieved in other cultures in the past.

For an example of slow creep, look at UK society. Many of the values we held as important, and normal, a few decades ago are now regarded as anachronistic, politically incorrect or just plain weird. The "devaluation" of those values has coincided with a dramatic reduction in religious participation over the same time-frame. Coincidence, or cause and effect? I guess we all have our own views on that one.

That's one way of looking at things, but I think over-burdening with unnecessary (and unbiblical) rules and traditions both runs counter to the essence of Christianity and can be counter-productive. Apart from the obvious corruption in the church, that is one reason for the Reformation and why the Amish's ancestors became what they were. There are certain things which are not negotiable, and the erosion of this I think has partly led to the decline in Christian belief in this country, yes. But certain things do not help (I would imagine for example the Catholic refusal to even do basic things like let their priests marry isn't helping them- they are having a shortage of priests...)

EDIT: in short, Christianity is more about a relationship with God, and after that, more principles than stringent rules. The problem with *some* Amish groups is that they're more interested in preserving these rules and traditions than they really are in genuine Biblical Christianity, and that they're be quite so anal about keeping them. That said, I admire them for getting the whole simple living and pacifism part better than many of us so-called evangelicals, and that they can even manage in this present world with such a low-tech lifestyle and old-fashioned clothing.

[jonny2mad]

I think post collapse survivors would envy these people , think post collapse easter island, cannibalism, resources gone constant inter tribal fighting, a bare barren landscape, actually our furture is worse because of pollution .

So mordor without the organisation and with more radiation

"The Road" is looking on the bright side, librarys burned knowledge apart from how to kill people gone and that limited, you just have to think of the knowledge lost when the roman empire fell and that was a small fall compared to whats a coming

[sam_uk]

I think post collapse survivors would envy these people , think post collapse easter island, cannibalism, resources gone constant inter tribal fighting, a bare barren landscape, actually our furture is worse because of pollution .

So mordor without the organisation and with more radiation

"The Road" is looking on the bright side, librarys burned knowledge apart from how to kill people gone and that limited, you just have to think of the knowledge lost when the roman empire fell and that was a small fall compared to whats a coming

LOL Had a bad day?

[jonny2mad]

I think post collapse survivors would envy these people , think post collapse easter island, cannibalism, resources gone constant inter tribal fighting, a bare barren landscape, actually our furture is worse because of pollution .

So mordor without the organisation and with more radiation

"The Road" is looking on the bright side, librarys burned knowledge apart from how to kill people gone and that limited, you just have to think of the knowledge lost when the roman empire fell and that was a small fall compared to whats a coming

LOL Had a bad day?

nope I'm pretty constant with my doom, personally I'm pretty cheerful I think I'd do fine anywhere, but for society well its screwed

[sam_uk]

Isn't Weston pretty much downwind from Hinkley?

<just to add to the gloom!>

[RenewableCandy]

It's interesting that the response in the face of the Stalinist persecution was to retreat into the forest. This is an oft-practised survival technique among oppressed rural peoples. For example,

Scotland, and indeed the North of England, about 1,000 years ago. It's probably how (one lot of) my ancestors survived the Harrowing of the North...and indeed why a lot of dictatorshops seem to hate forests.

[Tarrel]

Isn't Weston pretty much downwind from Hinkley?

<just to add to the gloom!>

Yep, as are Newport, Bristol and Bath. Basically, the homes of a million-odd people.

(Mind you, I should care. I lived within spitting distance of Aldermaston for 20 years!)

[the_lyniezian]

I think post collapse survivors would envy these people , think post collapse easter island, cannibalism, resources gone constant inter tribal fighting, a bare barren landscape, actually our furture is worse because of pollution .

So mordor without the organisation and with more radiation

"The Road" is looking on the bright side, librarys burned knowledge apart from how to kill people gone and that limited, you just have to think of the knowledge lost when the roman empire fell and that was a small fall compared to whats a coming

Well, *assuming* a real hardcore collapse (which isn't inevitable but...), it won't be easy fighting off millions of other people and having to cope with all the pollution and other detritus of urban industrialised living. Scraping a living of the meagre resources of the wilderness with only your immediate family for company might just be preferable.

And as for burning libraries, I hope not but I just think of recent events in Timbuktu...

[kenneal - lagger]

There is a reason that the Taiga is virtually unpopulated and that is the weather/climate. The growing season is extremely short, which makes growing enough food to last the winter very difficult. Animals do live there but in small numbers which makes them difficult to find to hunt. It's the same with Northern Canada. Even with modern technology and oil the numbers of people living there are very small. People live where a decent living can be made.

Once the Arctic ice goes in summer the Inuit might find, like the Polar bear, that the Arctic is virtually uninhabitable as their meat based diet, which also provides their clothing, housing and tools, is difficult to find and hunt. They couldn't turn to the forests for a living because they would have to move a long way south and they don't have the cultural background or technology to survive in the forest in any numbers. They are sea and ice based hunters with no heritage of eating or using vegetable matter.

The DODGY TAX AVOIDERS is not an uninhibited wilderness like the Northern Boreal Forests, or it wasn't until the Spanish arrived with all their European diseases and killed off the locals. It had a population now estimated to be several million. Although there isn't as much large wildlife in the DODGY TAX AVOIDERS as there is in many tropical places the high temperatures mean that food can be grown and fruit harvested all year round making life much easier. The only firewood you need, for instance, is for cooking. Virtually all the areas in the DODGY TAX AVOIDERS which were above the flood level had people living in it and farming areas of improved soils, Terra Preta. Even those areas subject to flooding had some people living in them is floating houses.

[Tarrel]

Yes, Canada is the second largest country in the World, with a population of only 35 million, and the vast majority of those live within 100 km of the US border.

There's a reason why humans originated in tropical climates. The more we move away from our natural habitat, the more we have to rely on our ingenuity and external energy sources to create an artificial climate around us. Living in the arctic is an extreme example of this. It's a wonder we manage it at all.

[the_lyniezian]

There is a reason that the Taiga is virtually unpopulated and that is the weather/climate. The growing season is extremely short, which makes growing enough food to last the winter very difficult. Animals do live there but in small numbers which makes them difficult to find to hunt. It's the same with Northern Canada. Even with modern technology and oil the numbers of people living there are very small. People live where a decent living can be made.

Once the Arctic ice goes in summer the Inuit might find, like the Polar bear, that the Arctic is virtually uninhabitable as their meat based diet, which also provides their clothing, housing and tools, is difficult to find and hunt. They couldn't turn to the forests for a living because they would have to move a long way south and they don't have the cultural background or technology to survive in the forest in any numbers. They are sea and ice based hunters with no heritage of eating or using vegetable matter.

Thing is, with climate change what other changes to the area might occur? Would these make things suitable for other types of people with different lifestyles to move in?

[adam2]

A serious reality-check for anyone contemplating "bugging out" to the wilderness and living a subsistence existence after a hard crash.

Learning points:
Acquire spares of hand tools, and look after them
Acquire good stocks of hardware (nails, screws, wire, etc)
Invest in cast-iron cookware - it will last forever
Grow birch trees!
Build a seed-bank

Interesting to read about their impoverished living conditions. One can harbour all kinds of " desert island" fantasies about building a wonderful shelter, lashed together with naturkal cordage, etc, but I guess the hard reality is that most time and effort will be taken simply trying to feed oneself.

Edit to add; Actually, the article demonstrates the value of living and working together in a community, rather than trying to go it alone.

Yes, Stock up on things that you cant make yourself, metal cookware, tools and fixings especialy.
I cant imagine that conditions after the crash in the UK would be like those portrayed, but just in case.
Think how much better they would have done if equiped with some basic hand tools, and spares, and some cast iron or stainless cookware.

And if anyone is thinking of building a very basic but weathertight shelter, there is something to be said for some modern materials.
A basic shed built of concrete blocks should last 100 years or more, glass bricks set into the walls would admit light and are very durable.

In the event of a sudden crash it should be possible to "find" building materiald, tools, cookware etc fairly easliy, they are unlikely to be high on the looters lists.
In the event of a slow crash, then these items are relatively affordable to buy now.

[RenewableCandy]

Sorry I lost this thread for a while. What I meant to say ages ago was, it just shows how very conducive to human living forests are. Even in far-from ideal weather, even with no metal implements for a proportion of the time, even in sub-optimal group size, the people in this story survived for more than a generation. With enough people so that someone could be spared to make charcoal, and a lucky hit of iron ore, they might have been sorted for good.