The merits of natural versus chemical fertilisers

[biffvernon]

Yes you get a bigger plant with more weight and can feed more people which is the goal here.

No, the more weight is water. Juicier does not mean more nutritious.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Do you seriously have hope that such a system might work despite the evidence of history that it never has?

Before pesticides & fertilizers famine was a recurrent theme.

Then there's the issue of population density and who gets forced to live on the non-productive land.

[Catweazle]

Do you seriously have hope that such a system might work despite the evidence of history that it never has?

Before pesticides & fertilizers famine was a recurrent theme.

Then there's the issue of population density and who gets forced to live on the non-productive land.

We've learned so much about growing food, maybe it is possible. We aren't going to unlearn it all.

If it does work it will take a lot of labour, which increases the calories required, and massive lifestyle changes for millions of people.

The real worry is that people will once again feel the need for sons, to feed them when they are too old to farm. If that happens then the population could rise further and that can't continue.

[vtsnowedin]

VT, I think you would find the book I linked to interesting. The author and other members of the project have proved that a largely self-sustaining system can work, using intelligent techniques for green manure / composting.

It does mean that land is non productive for quite a lot of the time, but this is balanced by the increased productivity in other areas.

I might indeed find it interesting but of course I would read it with a critical eye looking for false arguments and faulty math. I would be surprised to find they can get any acre to yield more then the 150 bushels per acre they are getting with corn in the Midwest USA. And if you factor in land left fallow or growing green manure crops not harvested total yield will be way below commercial average yields where they rotate one pay crop after another and adjust fertilizer applications and timing to get the right nutrients to the plant roots exactly when they need it. With seven billion people to feed and droughts and other interruptions to production as common as ever we cannot afford to have any great proportion of our crop land fallow in any given year. It is the total worldwide production that counts and it is there that organic methods don't measure up.

[vtsnowedin]

Yes you get a bigger plant with more weight and can feed more people which is the goal here.

No, the more weight is water. Juicier does not mean more nutritious.

That might be true for something like broccoli but grains like corn or wheat are measured by the bushel dryed to a standard moisture content so more bushels is indeed more food.

[vtsnowedin]

The moderators have separated these posts out from another thread and given them a new name. I don't have a problem with that as the posts had strayed a long way from the original topic but I don't think the thread subject title they chose for this thread does it justice or helps readers find it if searching for where it went from it's former "Freeze dried food " thread. So I think the posters here should suggest a better title for the moderators consideration. I'll throw in a couple of possibilities.
1: vtsnowedin won't see the value of permaculture.
2. Can organic farming feed seven billion people?
Please add your suggestion.

[Little John]

The moderators have separated these posts out from another thread and given them a new name. I don't have a problem with that as the posts had strayed a long way from the original topic but I don't think the thread subject title they chose for this thread does it justice or helps readers find it if searching for where it went from it's former "Freeze dried food " thread. So I think the posters here should suggest a better title for the moderators consideration. I'll throw in a couple of possibilities.
1: vtsnowedin won't see the value of permaculture.
2. Can organic farming feed seven billion people?
Please add your suggestion.

Number 2

[emordnilap]

Can organic farming feed seven billion people?

Using the word 'farming' is a distraction.

Permaculture and gardening using organic techniques has to feed as many as it can support, with 'farming' being used to describe larger communal efforts.

There are loads of people who disagree but hey, we're enjoying the dinosaur age. Soon, it will organic or nothing.

Unfortunately for most, that means becoming responsible for feeding yourself and your family. It means your entire life being centred around growing food - flying off to a sunny climate in winter to avoid obligations won't be an option.

[vtsnowedin]

Can organic farming feed seven billion people?

Using the word 'farming' is a distraction.

Permaculture and gardening using organic techniques has to feed as many as it can support, with 'farming' being used to describe larger communal efforts.

There are loads of people who disagree but hey, we're enjoying the dinosaur age. Soon, it will organic or nothing.

Unfortunately for most, that means becoming responsible for feeding yourself and your family. It means your entire life being centred around growing food - flying off to a sunny climate in winter to avoid obligations won't be an option.

So your answer is a clear no for the full seven billion?

[biffvernon]

That's not what he said. I think I already pointed out that the good folk of Chelsea, Vermont, could pretty much feed themselves, organically, if only they went outside and dug up their precious lawns.

[emordnilap]

We've huge amounts of land in Ireland that could feed millions organically, way more millions than our current five-ish. It would solve some unemployment problems too. And some diet-related problems. Fossil fuels do not encourage us to do any of this.

[ceti331]

if organic, local techniques could feed 7billion, why did we go to all the trouble of developping the complex systems we have now..machinery,international trade, supermarkets,refridgerators..
Seems more likely that the extra complexity (and moreso, the energy input) made the extra lives possible.
one issue is the level of technology depends on a society that can specialize. when people aren't farming manually they can study chemistry/engineering and develop pesticides/argi machines. To me it seems going back to manual farming will lose many benefits we take for granted in the modern world.

i remain firmly convinced by the malthusian catastrophe theory

[emordnilap]

when people aren't farming manually they can study chemistry/engineering and develop pesticides/argi machines.

That sounds grand and fine but what fuels it?

[vtsnowedin]

Now we are confusing terms a bit. To me at least "organic farming" is farming without the aid of chemical fertilisers or chemical pesticides. The labor does not have to be done by hand or by horse. You organic proponents wouldn't have a chance of winning the debate if manual labor was required. For some strange reason here in Vermont to label a crop as being organic you can not have spread lime on your fields. Now ground limestone is just that "Stone" just in very little pieces. I fail to see the harm. On the other hand you can spread wood ashes on your field and that's OK. I think taking wood and heating it to 1500 degrees and burning off the wood gas is much more akin to a chemical process than pounding a stone into dust. But that is just me.
And yes the people of Chelsea, VT could feed themselves organically. More then a few already are and there would be no need to tear up what little lawn there is in town. But that is not the question. A small sparsely populated area with decent soils and adequate rainfall can of course support itself. It is the cities that are bursting at the seams with people and the arid and semi arid areas of the world which have had population explosions based on oil income and food grown with big AG fertilizers and pesticides that you will not be able to feed with organic methods. They have no lawn to tear up or water to irrigate it with.

[emordnilap]

You organic proponents wouldn't have a chance of winning the debate if manual labor was required.

Eventually it will be all muscle power, just as it was before we entered this short period of fossil fuel burning. The era will return shortly, though whether we see it return is doubtful.