Japanese Minister: "Hurry up and die..."

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 23 Jan 2013, 15:54

biffvernon wrote:
stevecook172001 wrote:great leader(s) theory of history..
They were the nasty leaders; there have been nice ones too, though they tend to be less memorable. It's always the bad news that makes the headlines.

Insert you leader of choice, the argument still stands.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 23 Jan 2013, 17:26

RenewableCandy wrote: There is also the argument that the dark stuff can go away, in the sense that people only carry out atrocities under certain circumstances, and these can change.

That's important. Bad stuff happens when some people tell lies, hide the truth, are not open and transparent in everything they do. The Wikileaks, Bradley Manning, Julian Assange stuff is absolutely part of this. It happens at all levels from global corporations, through national governments to your local parish council and workplace.

Stopping people telling lies, or just not telling the whole truth, ought to be high on all our agendas every day we encounter it.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 23 Jan 2013, 20:37

I do think that the Japonese and German attitudes to civilians and POWs are on a scale of barbarism that are on a totally different league to isolated cases of torture/misbuse which other armies have done in time.

By and large, the british and American armies in WW2 have been well behaved and it is important to stress that the armies of WW2 were conscripted - these were ordinary men not professional soliders.

Something went very wrong in Japonese and German societies to produce the mass barbarism of WW2. I am knowledgeable of Germany far more than Japan but it is disturbing how quickly Hiter and the Nazis were able to indoctrinate and push a society into rabid racism and atrocities once war started.

I don't think that any society is immune but bringing up the odd case of other countries doing unpleasant things quite answers or resolves this difficult question.

Bif - I respect your pacifist views but even though I dislike most wars, occasionally wars do need to happen. WW2 in my opinion is the classic case of a war that had to be fought and yes people would have to die.

As for WW1, i think it is questionable whether we should have ever joined that war. a German dominated Europe under the Kaiser might not have been such a bad outcome compared to the mass slaughter of that war and the bitterness the peace afterwards.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 23 Jan 2013, 20:55

That's probably why there were more conchies in WWI than in WWII...

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 23 Jan 2013, 22:56

Lord Beria3 wrote:
Biff - I respect your pacifist views but even though I dislike most wars, occasionally wars do need to happen. WW2 in my opinion is the classic case of a war that had to be fought and yes people would have to die.

As for WW1, i think it is questionable whether we should have ever joined that war. a German dominated Europe under the Kaiser might not have been such a bad outcome compared to the mass slaughter of that war and the bitterness the peace afterwards.

Yes of course WW2 had to happen once we were in that mess My point was that there would have been no such mess is WW1 had not happened, leaving Germany in the predicament that was foisted upon it.

And WW1 would not have happened if the first born child of the monarch became the new monarch rather than just the first born male child. Go on, work it out. Who was the Kaiser's mother?

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 23 Jan 2013, 23:03

RenewableCandy wrote:That's probably why there were more conchies in WWI than in WWII...

Got me RC what in the world is a Conchies

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 23 Jan 2013, 23:07

vtsnowedin wrote:
RenewableCandy wrote:That's probably why there were more conchies in WWI than in WWII...
Got me RC what in the world is a Conchies

Conscientious objectors

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 24 Jan 2013, 00:16

stevecook172001 wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
RenewableCandy wrote:That's probably why there were more conchies in WWI than in WWII...
Got me RC what in the world is a Conchies
Conscientious objectors

Thanks

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 24 Jan 2013, 00:35

RenewableCandy wrote:That's probably why there were more conchies in WWI than in WWII...

Now that I know what you mean:
I think the trench warfare with the machine guns, mustard gas, massed artillery barrages and the senseless waste of thousands of men daily for zero gain would make a conchies out of Attila the Hun.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 24 Jan 2013, 15:29

I recommend "Blackadder Goes Forth", if you can get it in the States.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 24 Jan 2013, 16:05

Having moved my parents into a nursing home a month ago today, I am very much aware of the human and financial implications at the moment.

Not sure I have any great insight to the problem - we are where we are in this society. My dad is dying of cancer painfully and slowly and he is very much with it and determined to stay alive until the last possible second, but he is finding each day more and more of a struggle and my mum has to sit next to him all day every day to keep him company and I wish I had more time between work and family to spend with him but I live 130 miles away and there are only so many hours in the day. My brother visits most days as does one friend or another. The home is the best (and most expensive ) in the town.

At least the money will last longer than my dad. The question is, will it last longer than my mum?

Blue Peter · Post by **Blue Peter** » 24 Jan 2013, 16:19

RalphW wrote: At least the money will last longer than my dad. The question is, will it last longer than my mum?

My understanding at the moment is that once you're in, if the money drops below £20K, then government in some guise takes over. I suspect that they wouldn't move the person because of the upheaval, but as time goes on, there might be more and more temptation to make them trade-down,

Peter.

P.S. I'd be interested to know if this is wrong or has become wrong, because it's what my aunt is banking on, though I think that in her case she will die before the 20K is reached.

Edit: got confused about which who/what would run out first.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 24 Jan 2013, 16:28

The charges are over £1000 per parent per week. They do have a fair bit of savings, and dad has a reasonable pension, but it won't take many months before the house has to go.

If my dad pegs quickly and we manage to clear and rent the house, and my mum gets continuing care allowance, and my brother raises cash my selling my dad's collections on ebay we might avoid having to sell for a few years.

I hate to have to do these calculations whilst my dad is still alive.

PhilSage · Post by **PhilSage** » 24 Jan 2013, 17:42

RenewableCandy wrote:That's probably why there were more conchies in WWI than in WWII...

Wikipedia puts the Great-Britain figure at about 16 000 in WW1, and 60 000 in WW2.

Kitchener managed to raise an entirely volunteer army of half a million men, even following the carnage of 1914-1915. There was no such patriotic enthusiasm in WW2, as the fate of Kitchener's army on the Somme during 1916 was still a recent memory.

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 24 Jan 2013, 23:04

RenewableCandy wrote:I recommend "Blackadder Goes Forth", if you can get it in the States.

When you've finished laughing I'd recommend 'The War the Infantry Knew' as compiled by Cptn Dunn.

It is a compilation of memories of the officers and men of the Royal Welch Fusiliers for 1914-1919.

None of your heroes of the trenches lions led by donkeys jingoistic nonsense here nor any of the gung-ho of many WW2 texts. Just very well written Battalion recollections with all the loves and prejudices of the day.

It's also a bit simplistic to argue that WW2 happened because of the outcome of WW1. In WW1 the Germans thought they were the ones fighting imperialistic aggression. You could argue that the failure of the British to help the French in the Franco-Prussian war allowed a victorious Germany to unify and sow the seeds of a Germanic empire.

An interesting irony is that it was the German generals who refused to bombard the civilian population during the siege of Paris despite the guerilla tactics of the mostly defeated French.

Only 65 years later their grandchildren were bombing Guernica.