Companies going bankrupt/into administration

[JohnB]

Essential Bills

The highlights from the ILCU ‘What’s Left’ tracker found again that as expected respondents stated that mortgage and rent were the largest / most important bills for respondents ( 75%). This is followed by groceries (62%) and utilities (59%). Transport / car (25%), loan repayments (22%), health insurance (21%), credit cards (18%) followed by education fees (8%), telecoms / TV (6%) and childcare (6%)

What is the expenditure that accounts for the 40% debt repayments made up of? Without knowing that, the figures are pretty meaningless.

[vtsnowedin]

Essential Bills

The highlights from the ILCU ‘What’s Left’ tracker found again that as expected respondents stated that mortgage and rent were the largest / most important bills for respondents ( 75%). This is followed by groceries (62%) and utilities (59%). Transport / car (25%), loan repayments (22%), health insurance (21%), credit cards (18%) followed by education fees (8%), telecoms / TV (6%) and childcare (6%)

What is the expenditure that accounts for the 40% debt repayments made up of? Without knowing that, the figures are pretty meaningless.

Well you see there was this young lady wearing a miniskirt and leather boots standing next to a lamp post and one thing led to the other thing and....

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Whereas I believe that the route of the banking crisis was high oil prices.

[vtsnowedin]

Whereas I believe that the route of the banking crisis was high oil prices.

I don't think high oil prices were the root cause of the banking crisis but were instead just the trigger that pulled the first card from the house of cards.
I personally know people that had bought houses at the market rate (inflated of course) and using a ARM because that is what they could get and were going along quite well with both of them working in the service industry. A lot of there income came from tips. When gas prices spiked people couldn't afford to eat out as often and their tip income plummeted. They lost the house and every dollar they had put into it. There were a lot of people in that same boat and you add them together and you have yourself a nice banking crisis.
It isn't over yet by the way.

[Little John]

Whereas I believe that the route of the banking crisis was high oil prices.

I don't think high oil prices were the root cause of the banking crisis but were instead just the trigger that pulled the first card from the house of cards.
I personally know people that had bought houses at the market rate (inflated of course) and using a ARM because that is what they could get and were going along quite well with both of them working in the service industry. A lot of there income came from tips. When gas prices spiked people couldn't afford to eat out as often and their tip income plummeted. They lost the house and every dollar they had put into it. There were a lot of people in that same boat and you add them together and you have yourself a nice banking crisis.
It isn't over yet by the way.

But oil prices were responsible both directly and indirectly.

Low oil prices meant that ever more funny money could be lent into existence on the basis that tomorrow would always honour the promises of today inherent in that debt based money. Consequently, the rising of oil prices in 2007 meant that those promises could no longer be honoured and so the house of cards began to collapse.

Sure, a debt based money supply is always a car crash waiting to happen and has, indeed, happened a number of times on our journey from 1750 to today. However, each time it has happened, our economies have eventually recovered due to the restorative effect of continued growth, in turn due to ever greater access to resources. Those days are over now. This time it's different. This time there will be no renewed growth.

The game of growth is over. An ever expanding debt-based money supply is over.

Capitalism is over.

[vtsnowedin]

[Capitalism is over.

I was with you right up to here. The popping of a bubble no matter how big will not end Capitalism. It cannot die as it is not a living thing but a set of rules that define the way it is. No matter what happens some one will gather up some resources and produce a product from it by adding labor then sell the finished product at a profit. You can rail against it all you want and demonise those that have succeeded at it but the fundamentals of it will be there long after you and I are gone as sure as the sun rises in the east.

[featherstick]

Not really a set of rules, more a set of behaviours. There are several flavours of capitalism, the current Anglo-American neo-liberal one is the most rapacious and damaging version on the planet. We desparately need to rein it in and perhaps confine capitalism to the margins, ensuring that the necessities are covered equitably.

[vtsnowedin]

, ensuring that the necessities are covered equitably.

Nice thought but it is impossible to achieve and every attempt ends in necessities being unmet unequally.
All you can hope for is equal opportunity. What you do with that opportunity is up to you.

[Little John]

[Capitalism is over.

I was with you right up to here. The popping of a bubble no matter how big will not end Capitalism. It cannot die as it is not a living thing but a set of rules that define the way it is. No matter what happens some one will gather up some resources and produce a product from it by adding labor then sell the finished product at a profit. You can rail against it all you want and demonise those that have succeeded at it but the fundamentals of it will be there long after you and I are gone as sure as the sun rises in the east.

You are not talking about capitalism there. you are talking about free trade. However, there are at least two or more problems, even with that.

Firstly, there is the question of what exactly is meant by free trade? Truly free trade requires property ownership rights should not exist over and above that which can be produced by man. That is to say, any naturally occurring resource must be regarded as part of the commons such that everyone has free and equitable access to such resources. If, as is actually the case, some people have preferential access to such resources and, when they do, they are not required to pay compensation to those who do not have access, then there is not and can be no such thing as a free market. Under such circumstances, it is always an illusion.

Secondly, free markets, despite the plaintiff cries of its quasi-religious adherents, are not the wisest allocators of resources. Take, for example, the sale of rhino horns in africa. In africa, rhinos are being hunted to extinction because of a market demand for rhino horn as an aphrodisiac in China. Common sense would dictate that such a resource should be managed effectively so as to sustain its supply. However, paradoxically, as the rhino become ever rarer, the price of rhino horn steadily rises. This, in turn, increases the motivation to increase the efficiency with which hey are hunted down. In other words, the market in rhino horns is actually causing the extinction of rhinos to accelerate towards the death of the final rhino in a few decades time.

Finally, putting aside the illusory nature of the free market and putting aside the paradoxes of supply and demand that it can throw up, there is the final and most intractable problem of all and that is that it actually is, on the whole, so damned efficient at allocating resources, albeit not very equitably and not very wisely. This efficiency of hovering up the earth's resource has led the entire world, in the space of less than two hundred years, to the precipice of economic, political and ecological catastrophe.

It has to stop. It will stop. We will either manage it ourselves or nature will manage it for us.

[vtsnowedin]

You are not talking about capitalism there. you are talking about free trade. However, there are at least two or more problems, even with that.

Firstly, there is the question of what exactly is meant by free trade? Truly free trade requires property ownership rights should not exist over and above that which can be produced by man. . If, as is actually the case, some people have preferential access to such resources and, when they do, they are not required to pay compensation to those who do not have access, then there is not and can be no such thing as a free market. Under such circumstances, it is always an illusion.

Secondly, free markets, despite the plaintiff cries of its quasi-religious adherents, are not the wisest allocators of resources. Take, for example, the sale of rhino horns in africa. In africa, rhinos are being hunted to extinction because of a market demand for rhino horn as an aphrodisiac in China. Common sense would dictate that such a resource should be managed effectively so as to sustain its supply. However, paradoxically, as the rhino become ever rarer, the price of rhino horn steadily rises. This, in turn, increases the motivation to increase the efficiency with which hey are hunted down. In other words, the market in rhino horns is actually causing the extinction of rhinos to accelerate towards the death of the final rhino in a few decades time.

Finally, putting aside the illusory nature of the free market and putting aside the paradoxes of supply and demand that it can throw up, there is the final and most intractable problem of all and that is that it actually is, on the whole, so damned efficient at allocating resources, albeit not very equitably and not very wisely. This efficiency of hovering up the earth's resource has led the entire world, in the space of less than two hundred years, to the precipice of economic, political and ecological catastrophe.

It has to stop. It will stop. We will either manage it ourselves or nature will manage it for us.

No I am not talking about free trade. Are you confused or just trying to confuse the issue? Any good Capitalist will seek to obtain a monopoly on his product to maximise his return on investment. Monopolies are not good for the customers though and they are players in a Capitalist system and regulate against monopolies.
As to this whine.

That is to say, any naturally occurring resource must be regarded as part of the commons such that everyone has free and equitable access to such resources

What good would it do you or I to have the deed to one seven-billionth of the worlds resources? Would I have access to my share? could I do anything with it? But under the terrible system we have now even though I own no oil field or refinery there is fuel in my fuel tanks and without owning any coal fields hydro dams or wind mills the lights come on if I flip the switch, I have coffee from Brazil in my cup and steak from Nebraska on my plate.
What system other then Capitalism and free trade could deliver all these things to my hand as equitably and cheaply? Certainly not Socialism and it will certainly not ever be' Free'.

As to your example of the Rhino horns. If someone "Owned" the rhinos and was free to sell the horns at market prices then they would protect their resource indefinitely but they have been declared "Common" and protected so no individual can benefit from an effort to protect them so efforts to do so prove to be inadequate. It is counterintuitive that banning the sale of the horns actually does the rhinos more harm then good but that is the case.
And finally Capitalism is not the cause of the earths humans problems. It is over population allowed by cheap energy/oil that is the problem and it will cure itself with the end of cheap oil.
Not only did Capitalism not cause the problem the ending of Capitalist activity would not help solve it.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/soci ... 3012357024

[extractorfan]

What a totally intriguing argument between Steve and vt there. I am totally undecided as to who is correct

I know pointless comment, it was jsd, whom I agreed with that lead to me reading this exchange more...erm.....indepthly.

[nexus]

Nice one RC

Father-of-two Roy Hobbs said: “I used to hate these places but now I’m nostalgic for any kind of human interaction.

“Manual shopping is a great test of your verbal skills. It also proves you don’t have to do everything on computers, because the world is like a screen you can walk into.”

It's funny because it's (going to be) true.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Nice one RC

Father-of-two Roy Hobbs said: “I used to hate these places but now I’m nostalgic for any kind of human interaction.

“Manual shopping is a great test of your verbal skills. It also proves you don’t have to do everything on computers, because the world is like a screen you can walk into.”

It's funny because it's (going to be) true.

"... and then one day, the internet failed..."

Caption seen under a simple cartoon of a family huddled in a cave. Can't find it for sale online, though, which is slightly worrying.

[vtsnowedin]

"... and then one day, the internet failed..."

Caption seen under a simple cartoon of a family huddled in a cave. Can't find it for sale online, though, which is slightly worrying.

IIRC That is a "Far side" comic by Gary Larson and is copywrite protected so hard to get off the net.