Crash Watcher: Major chance Europeans will starve after 2030

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Lord Beria3
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Crash Watcher: Major chance Europeans will starve after 2030

Post by Lord Beria3 »

http://crash-watcher.blogspot.com/2013/ ... oo%21+Mail
The relative decline from 10 to 1.1 b/py, from 2006 to 2065, is an 89% drop, which is even worse than the 80% relative decline for NA. But, EU’s per capita consumption rate is a little more than half that of NA’s in 2006, and consequently, that 89% drop puts EU’s absolute per capita consumption rate just slightly above my predicted threshold rate, of 1 b/py, for starvation and population decline. In fact, past 2040, what keeps EU about that threshold rate is the predicted increasing imports from NA, and to a lesser extent, from SA, plus the by then accelerating declining population change trend.

Dropping from a per capita consumption rate of 11-10 b/py to 1.3-1.1 b/py I think, would put the EU’s economy at high risk of transitioning from a developed region economy to a third world economy, at least by today’s standards, and, right on the threshold of starvation and a sharp population decline.

The predicted per capita consumption rate of 1.3 b/py is about the same as AF’s per capita consumption rate today. The projected per capita consumption rate of 1.1 b/py from 2050 to 2065 would put EU well below that predicted for the ME or SA in 2065.

However, EU would still be better of than AF and FS, which are predicted to drop below the 1 b/py threshold for starvation and population decline. But, if these regions cut their exports for domestic use, to mitigate starvation and population decline, then EU will be negatively effected even sooner than the projected in Figure 12. In other words the solid red line in Figure 12 would decline even more steeply than presented. I will return to these considerations after I finish my nine-region survey.
These conclusions are extremely stark but they seem to be done on a good body of research and modelling.

One of the beauties of the internet is that anybody who has the will can discover good quality analysis that is probably as good (or certainly near as much) as the secret national-security establishment modelling programmes.

Of course the CIA, Pentagon and others are doing their own versions of Crash_Watcher analysis of future oil production, export, per capita consumption and population forecasts as this has obvious national-security implications.

The general I am getting from these posts are that from 2030-2050 most regions in the world will have either reverted to a poor Third World level of consumption or crashed into die-offs. A few regions, like South America are a bit better off but only moderately.

This generally goes along with the originial Limits of Growth modelling back in the 70's.

Of course, it is not entirely out of question that the Chinese lead a thorium discovery and ensure we avoid these Malthusian nightmarish futures. Lets see. We have twenty years for science to come with alternatives to our future fate.
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RenewableCandy
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Post by RenewableCandy »

You can't eat Thorium. Even if it's really a goer, it's only going to address half the problem.
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ceti331
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Post by ceti331 »

if it worked, you could use Thorium to power lights to grow plants underground or vertically ...

but I dont beleive we should be populated to a level where we need nuclear power to eat , because any nuclear power has the same problem as oil, its burning a terrestrial resource
which will (on our timescales) deplete.
"The stone age didn't end for a lack of stones"... correct, we'll be right back there.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

Wind and solar pv and other renewable technologies are getting cheaper. Nuclear is getting more expensive.

Do the maths.
ceti331
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Post by ceti331 »

i dont think wind/solar can do what oil did - support humans beyond the capacity of the biosphere (since the biosphere is already solar-powered nano-tech)
its thorium, fusion, space colonization .. or starvation for billions
"The stone age didn't end for a lack of stones"... correct, we'll be right back there.
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

Oil supports relatively few humans beyond their fair share available resources.

A technological fix for a technological problem is not the answer.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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jonny2mad
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Post by jonny2mad »

:shock: and yet our population increases through mass immigration and asylum, it will be interesting to see the turn around in view when people are actually starving .
But by then it will be too late
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Post by hodson2k9 »

A technological fix for a technological problem is not the answer.
Technology is not the problem or the cause. We are the ones who decide what to do with technology.

The way i see it is technology and in fact resources are/were a gift. We could of done amazing things with probably half the oil/resources we have used so far and there would be no need to use any more oil or coal etc. We probably could of lived comfortably and sustainably.

Technology could of helped us on the way to this path but ultimately we chose a different path one of endless economic growth and consumption of needless technological products and weapons etc..

Thats not a technological problem to me thats a human problem. Technology could and probably will still help us on the long slide down to the bottom but again its up to us which technology we choose to use and how.
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

True but that wasn't my point. 8)
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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Post by hodson2k9 »

emordnilap wrote:True but that wasn't my point. 8)
:oops: my mistake!

:)
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vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

emordnilap wrote:Oil supports relatively few humans beyond their fair share available resources.

A technological fix for a technological problem is not the answer.
I have to doubt that premise very much. The world was quite crowded back in 1857 when the oil age began. Up to a third of farmland was used to support the horses that provided transportation and agricultural traction. yields were as low as 35 bushels of corn per acre vs. today's 150 bpa.
Lose fossil fuels and the increased agricultural production and efficiencies that come from them and the available resources will only support the 1.2 billion people that were alive back in 1850. Perhaps some other non oil dependant technologies such as modern medicine and the knowledge gained about public health requirements would raise that figure to 3 billion or so but the last 4 billion are certainly ridding the back of the oil tiger and that tiger is getting hungry.
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

Point. Again.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

vtsnowedin wrote:
emordnilap wrote:Oil supports relatively few humans beyond their fair share available resources.

A technological fix for a technological problem is not the answer.
I have to doubt that premise very much. The world was quite crowded back in 1857 when the oil age began. Up to a third of farmland was used to support the horses...
An interesting notion of "crowded." Crowded with fields of horses?

The world was not crowded in 1857, unless you're talking about a comparison with 1657. I understand what you are saying, but looking at it from an ecological point of view, it makes no sense. In my part of the world, many of those horsefields have become urban places - part of the concrete jungle where the only wildlife is a few weeds and insects, plus the foxes and pigeons that survive thanks only to our wastefulness. Pasture is much better, both in terms of local wildlife and global ecology.

In other words, the world may have been crowded in 1857, but human civilisation was not buggering up the entire planet. We were only just getting started.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

emordnilap wrote:Oil supports relatively few humans beyond their fair share available resources.
Yes, but if we insisted on sharing out the resources equally, without insisting on an acceptance of the limits of overall global economic/population growth, then we'd actually be making the problem worse. It makes the whole system less sustainable/resilient, not more.

I actually agree with Ceti, at least in principle. Humans might have followed a different path, and ended up expanding into space. It's not technologically unimaginable. The problem is that we've missed that boat. It's not technologically imaginable in the real world, given the trajectory that industrialised civilisation is on. To be able to fulfil ceti's dream, we needed to sort out our political, economic, social and other ideological problems before the oil started to run out and the population explosion got out of control.

There may be techno-fixes to some parts of the problem (such as global warming), but there's certainly no techno-fix to the overall problem.

There is only one solution: fewer humans consuming fewer resources and producing less waste.

Everything else is a fantasy.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
Little John

Post by Little John »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
emordnilap wrote:Oil supports relatively few humans beyond their fair share available resources.
Yes, but if we insisted on sharing out the resources equally, without insisting on an acceptance of the limits of overall global economic/population growth, then we'd actually be making the problem worse. It makes the whole system less sustainable/resilient, not more.

I actually agree with Ceti, at least in principle. Humans might have followed a different path, and ended up expanding into space. It's not technologically unimaginable. The problem is that we've missed that boat. It's not technologically imaginable in the real world, given the trajectory that industrialised civilisation is on. To be able to fulfil ceti's dream, we needed to sort out our political, economic, social and other ideological problems before the oil started to run out and the population explosion got out of control.

There may be techno-fixes to some parts of the problem (such as global warming), but there's certainly no techno-fix to the overall problem.

There is only one solution: fewer humans consuming fewer resources and producing less waste.

Everything else is a fantasy.
Yes
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