What can we do to change the minds of decision makers and people in general to actually do something about preparing for the forthcoming economic/energy crises (the ones after this one!)?
sushil_yadav wrote:......
And how many Global Problems have been solved by the "short enough" Twitter messages that you bothered to read????
About the same number as you yourself have solved by ranting against industrial society using the products of industrial society...for, ooh, how many years is it now and you still haven't managed to change?
Well at least you can't blame s_y for that.
Yes I can, because his actions make no sense. To repeatedly, over a period of years, condemn the very medium one is using to propagate one's message of condemnation, is to contradict oneself. It would make at least some sense if each post contributed something new that reinforced the point being made (and there's plenty of material out there that even I know about: more would be interesting). But they don't. They're just rants. Even the writing style hasn't got any better.
It's like watching someone who's suffering from OCD.
If you had gone through the thread carefully you would have found that these points have already been discussed before, not once but many times.....Here it is once again.
I never claimed that I am not a part of society that is destroying environment.
The title of my article says "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment" and since I am a citizen of Industrial Society I get included automatically.
Computers are being used today because they are being manufactured by Industrial Society.
Was anyone using computers in Hunter_Gatherer Society / Agrarian Society?????
There are billions of people in this world who are not using computers.....Has that saved the environment?????.....It hasn't, because billions of other people are using computers and thousands of other consumer goods and services.
Environment doesn't get saved if a few people live a simple life.....It doesn't get saved if a few thousand people live a simple life......It doesn't get saved if a few million people live a simple life.....It doesn't get saved even if a few billion people live a simple life [which is happening right now.....Out of 7 billion people roughly half, about 3.5 billion are already living a simple life in Asia, Africa and South America .......but this doesn't save the environment......because the rest 3.5 billion people all over the world are living a highly consumerist life which is enough to destroy all ecosystems.
The entire world has to live a simple life. In animal kingdom all animals lived a simple life.....In Hunter_Gatherer Society all people lived a simple life......In Agrarian Society almost all people lived a simple life.
In a non-industrial society simple living happens automatically....one does not have to make efforts to live a simple life. In a non-industrial society environment gets saved automatically....one does not have to make efforts to save environment.
An Industrial Society produces thousands of consumer goods in addition to food, clothing and shelter.....therefore simple living by entire society is impossible.
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Man is not the only inhabitant of this planet......This planet is home to millions of other species too.....It is not the play ground of the human species which can do anything it wants.....Welfare of millions of other species has to be kept in mind.
Industrial Society has destroyed most of the biodiversity and ecosystems on earth.
Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth....The biggest act of killing, murder and terrorism on earth.
This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" Societies.
Hunter_Gatherer Society was sustainable.....Agrarian Society was sustainable.....The question of Industrial Society being sustainable doesn't arise.
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Millions of other species destroy environment only for food.
Human species is the only lunatic species that has destroyed environment for food, clothing, shelter and thousands of consumer goods and services.
One does not need to do research for 10,000 years to know what is wrong with human lifestyle.....It is so very obvious and crystal clear.
stevecook172001 wrote:Translation: "I know it is unsustainable and I know it is unfair. However, since I benefit from it, I don't give shit. Furthermore, since you benefit from it, you have no right to point out it's unsustainability or unfairness to me".
Not quite. You have ever right to point it out. And a reasonable person has every right to notice that those doing the pointing are preaching but not practicing. Sort of hard to take someone seriously decrying the terrible nature of...the society, systems and culture which made that very decrying possible.
Is that all you have? You really must try harder HalfBreed.
If a system exists that makes it exceedingly difficult for any individual to operate outside of it, that does not logically render illegitimate any criticism of that system by anyone who exists inside it.
The cheap rhetoric you are attempting to employ is exactly the same kind of bullshit that was no doubt used against white proponents of slavery reform. After all, who were they to complain about a system they were clearly benefiting from...eh?
Pathetic.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
JavaScriptDonkey wrote:
It's just pseudo religious
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. The repetitiveness, the lack of depth, the absence of corroborative material (in his posts, that is, not in real life!) the hectoring tone...he does rather make it all sound like sermons from a cult.
And I'm not so much getting at him for using a computer (after all, the Moneyless Man did so also, for one project, and Al Gore flew round the world talking about Climate Chaos, for a short time), what irks is the lack of any evidence that he does anything else. No background. No personal journey. No evidence of dialogue with others (and they must be legion by now) who have similar ideas. Nothing. Just this one-dimensional preachy stuff. Over six years of it. One even wonders if he still believes it himself.
RenewableCandy wrote:I'm afraid he was the first person on this board whose posts I completely stopped reading. He remains the only one.
RenewableCandy wrote:
sushil_yadav wrote:May I ask one simple question?
If there is nothing of value in this thread then why do you keep coming back to it??????
...
I've "come back" to it just the once, so "keep" is a bit much.
sushil_yadav wrote:May I ask one simple question?
If there is nothing of value in this thread then why do you keep coming back to it??????
There are thousands of other threads in this forum that might be more appropriate for you.
Is anyone forcing you to read this thread??????
And lastly, I am not posting for you.......there are thousands of other members in Power Switch and thousands of guest visitors who come to this forum.
sushil_yadav wrote:If you had gone through the thread carefully you would have found that these points have already been discussed before, not once but many times.....Here it is once again.
[SNIP]
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
There are examples of non-industrial societies destroying environments (the deforestation of Southern England during the Bronze Age) just as there are examples of industrial societies creating rich environments (The Netherlands for example).
There are examples of industrial societies enriching the mind (Universities and culture) just as there are examples of agrarian societies 'destroying' the mind (Cambodia, North Korea).
I know from experience the futility of debate when dealing with a believer so I'll not be running any further with this.
sushil_yadav wrote:This person doesn't keep his / her word.
RenewableCandy wrote:I'm afraid he was the first person on this board whose posts I completely stopped reading. He remains the only one.
RenewableCandy wrote:
sushil_yadav wrote:May I ask one simple question?
If there is nothing of value in this thread then why do you keep coming back to it??????
...
I've "come back" to it just the once, so "keep" is a bit much.
sushil_yadav wrote:May I ask one simple question?
If there is nothing of value in this thread then why do you keep coming back to it??????
There are thousands of other threads in this forum that might be more appropriate for you.
Is anyone forcing you to read this thread??????
And lastly, I am not posting for you.......there are thousands of other members in Power Switch and thousands of guest visitors who come to this forum.
sushil_yadav
Sushil, it is not merely industrial society that destroys the environment. Human civilisations, of all kinds throughout history have destroyed the environment all the way from the Sumerians though to the modern-day. Modern industrial society just happens to be the most "effective" at destroying the environment.
Even pre-historic hunter-gatherer humans arguably had a deleterious effect on the environment as well. Homo-Sapien man coexisted alongside many other proto-humans up till about thirty thousand yeas ago. However, one way or another, we appear to have outcompeted them and driven all but ourselves to extinction. Not to mention quite a few other mega-fauna species such as the sabertooth tigers, the giant short-faced bears, giant sloths, giant camels, huge dire wolves and the wooly mammoths. All of these disappeared at precisely the same time as we began to spread out of Africa. There is every reason to suspect that we hunted them all to extinction.
Every human society that has existed on earth has destroyed environment to some extent but there was a lot of difference in scale and magnitude of destruction.
In pre-industrial society environmental destruction was localized and very small compared to environmental destruction of Industrial Society......It is like comparing the Lamp with the Sun.
Millions of animal species destroyed environment only for food.....Hunter_Gatherer society destroyed environment only for food....Agrarian society destroyed environment for food, clothing and shelter.....Industrial Society has destroyed environment for food, clothing, shelter plus thousands of consumer goods and services.
In the absence of Industrial Machines only limited destruction of nature was possible......Agrarian Societies only destroyed some ecosystems on the land - forests and soil......Marine ecology was almost 100% safe in Agrarian Stage.
No pre-industrial society poisoned the planet with trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.
Agrarian Society destroyed environment for Agriculture......Industrial Society has destroyed environment for Agriculture and Industry - Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Transportation Industry, Recycling Industry.
Industrial Society has destroyed the entire planet - The Land, The Sky, The Oceans.....It has decimated millions of other species.
Industrial Society is millions of times more destructive than any pre-industrial society.....It has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth.
This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" Societies.
Hunter_Gatherer Society was sustainable.....Agrarian Society was sustainable.....The question of Industrial Society being sustainable doesn't arise.
Good point UE, I only pop into this thread now and again, but whenever I do I always think it should be called: "The stating the bleeding obvious thread".
You do realise that most of us agree with you, don't you?
UE
Yup even I do, which is why I care at all that s-y puts the point so bloody badly. The aggression in the posts are almost designed to alienate people from the point of view being put. It does make me wonder sometimes.
You do realise that most of us agree with you, don't you?
Why, of all places, have you chosen here to come and preach? Why not do it somewhere where most of the people aren't already on your side?
UE
I have been doing that for quite some time....I have posted in many other forums related to diverse topics and subjects..
My article (and subsequent additions to it} is a critique of science, technology, industrialization, business and finance......More than 80% of net users are from these fields....So it doesn't matter where I post, I encounter people who are not on my side at many places.
sushil_yadav wrote:My article (and subsequent additions to it} is a critique of science, technology, industrialization, business and finance......More than 80% of net users are from these fields....So it doesn't matter where I post, I encounter people who are not on my side at many places.
Sure, you may encounter them widely, but of all the forums on the net, this one's membership is certainly in the lowest decile of those who don't agree with you.
RenewableCandy's post just above makes a critical point about effective communication. Being 'right' has very little to do with being an effective communicator.
