Very long piece by Nicole Foss

[UndercoverElephant]

It will take all day to read, but it is all directly relevant to the topics discussed on this website:

http://theautomaticearth.com/Energy/ren ... ality.html

[ceti331]

nice pessimistic article

It will take all day to read, but it is all directly relevant to the topics discussed on this website:

http://theautomaticearth.com/Energy/ren ... ality.html[/quote

"The necessary funds will not be available, and in the coming period of deleveraging, deflation and economic depression,"

... agree with the pessimistic tone. Statements like the above are slanted slightly wrong to me - alternative energy isn't waiting for money... money is energy (when its working right).

Either renewable energy works, in which case it makes its own money, ... or it doesn't


I often hear similar nonsense in real life... "it just needs investment.." .. detachment of money and energy, a lack of understanding of the link

Technologically harnessable renewable energy is largely a myth.

yes. i skimmed the rest, (preaching to the converted) but most people just project forward images they have in their head of oil-age devices.

There's also the crazy idea that we didn't develop renewables because we dont need it while the oil is flowing - but the demand is always there for many multiples more than we have... there's no reason renewables aren't used in parallel with oil other than they are pathetic by comparison.

[biffvernon]

Somebody care to summarise in under 100 words?

[Lord Beria3]

This is really an abuse of the true potential of renewable power, which is to provide small-scale, distributed supply directly adjacent to demand, as negative load. Minimizing the infrastructure requirement maximizes the EROEI, which is extremely important for low EROEI energy sources. It would also minimize the grid-management headache renewable energy wheeled around the grid can give power system operators. Nevertheless, most plans for renewable build-out are very infrastructure-heavy, and therefore energy and capital intensive to create.

This is the key quote for me. Renewables (in their current generational state of development) are useful on a small scale but cannot replace our fossil fuel system.

Of course, a developments in nano-technology within a generation might change all that (we hope!) but until then Nicola is completely right.

Which is why for the next twenty to thirty years we will rely on natural gas, what remains of oil, coal and nuclear power.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Somebody care to summarise in under 100 words?

Easy.

The idea that renewables could ever replace fossil fuels to power our society, or even a tiny sliver of our society is a middle class fantasy promulgated by those with no real grasp of the scale of the undertaking. All but the strong will die cold and alone within X years.

[UndercoverElephant]

Looks like this is one of those rare occasions when I am in complete agreement with the donkey...

We all know it. It's no good trying to switch to renewables without switching everything else we do to completely different modus operandi. Either everything changes, or lots of really bad stuff happens...and everything changes.

[Little John]

Looks like this is one of those rare occasions when I am in complete agreement with the donkey...

We all know it. It's no good trying to switch to renewables without switching everything else we do to completely different modus operandi. Either everything changes, or lots of really bad stuff happens...and everything changes.

yes

[raspberry-blower]

We all know it. It's no good trying to switch to renewables without switching everything else we do to completely different modus operandi.

That's the bottom line though, isn't it? Renewables better suit a decentralized energy system - not the mass generation system that is the current set-up.

When Peak Oil becomes a rear mirror event - we'll have to adapt to a totally different modus operandi

[biffvernon]

Gosh, everybody in agreement. Is this a PowerSwitch group hug.

[ceti331]

Gosh, everybody in agreement. Is this a PowerSwitch group hug.

we just need to educate the rest of the world now ..

[emordnilap]

Somebody care to summarise in under 100 words?

Easy.

The idea that renewables could ever replace fossil fuels to power our society, or even a tiny sliver of our society is a middle class fantasy promulgated by those with no real grasp of the scale of the undertaking. All but the strong will die cold and alone within X years.

21 of the remaining 49 words can be taken from the piece itself:

We can, of course, live in a world of renewable energy only, as we have done through out most of history

we, of course, implying the species itself.

[biffvernon]

I think 'through out' can count as one word, 'throughout', leaving one to spare.

Doomed.

[JavaScriptDonkey]

"We can, of course, live in a world of renewable energy only, as we have done through out most of history" = "All but the strong will die cold and alone within X years."

With current population levels we are deep into overshoot and I doubt that all of us can in fact live in a world of renewable energy only.

[Yves75]

This is the key quote for me. Renewables (in their current generational state of development) are useful on a small scale but cannot replace our fossil fuel system.

Unfortunately even that is very questionable.

For wind, there was a summary of studies sometimes ago on the oil drum showing that small turbines were highly less efficient than big ones (compared to material embeded energy etc), and that in fact it was very doubtful that they ever produce what was required to build them.
Here it is :
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6954

For PV I also read somewhere that if you add up all the electric/electronics system and batteries required for plenty of small installations, the number really do not compare very well.

Maybe the case for simple solar thermal.
And the case for biomass with the nearby wood when there is some left...

[ceti331]

For PV I also read somewhere that if you add up all the electric/electronics system and batteries required for plenty of small installations, the number really do not compare very well.

i guessed that PV had a niche for satelites because of the energy required to get any other energy store into orbit, and thats why its not already more commonly terrestrially.

I think concentrators could have been made with c19th tech (mirrors..steam), must be many obvious reasons why they wont scale, eg needing water AND sunlight