Not sure I'd recommend it. I ended up having to buy it from the library after Leo dumped it in the bath. I'm sure there are more modern manuals that are more relevant to our climate than Mollinson's. It does give you the principles and ideas but of course talks about varieties of plants and local climates that are not relevant for Wales.Catweazle wrote:Would you recommend it ? If so I'll find a copy to keep, I will have to refer to it often.featherstick wrote:Zone 1. The house and immediate surroundings. I have a copy of Bill Mollinsons Permaculture manual you are welcome to borrow if you like. It's written for an Australian context but the principles can be inferred.Catweazle wrote:So what's the best place to start ? Nearest the house and work outwards ?
I suppose the chickens have got to be closest as they need most attention.
The "design a smallholding" thread.
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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featherstick
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"Tea's a good drink - keeps you going"
There are two side to this.
Permaculture is about doing things in a different way to what is currently the norm. Learning and understanding what permaculture is about is one part of it. You need to get to grips with the ethics, principles, common design tools etc, and above all learning to think, rather than doing things a certain way because that's the way it's done. You can learn much of that from books from anywhere in the world. If you read Australian books, you just have to accept that the sun isn't in the north, and that you don't need kangaroos in your design! Having said that, The Designers Manual is quite old now, and much thinking has moved on, but still worth reading.
We don't have one climate in Britain, and that's where observation and learning about the local climate, culture etc., comes in. You can learn that after you've got to grips with what permaculture is about. Reading a book about applying permaculture in south east England may not be much more use than an Australian one, if you're on top of a Welsh mountain! It may even encourage you to do the wrong things! The design you come up with for your site may be totally different to the design you would do for your neighbour with an identical site. Part of your observation is likely to be learning traditional ways of doing things in your area, as they would have evolved over long periods to use local resources, and work in the climate, but it's also useful to know of ideas from all over the world, and be able to pick some that could be adapted.
So read widely about what permaculture is about, and get ideas from different places that you may one day be able to adapt for where you are, and learn the local landscape, culture and traditions, and observe your site for a while. Then start designing.
Permaculture is about doing things in a different way to what is currently the norm. Learning and understanding what permaculture is about is one part of it. You need to get to grips with the ethics, principles, common design tools etc, and above all learning to think, rather than doing things a certain way because that's the way it's done. You can learn much of that from books from anywhere in the world. If you read Australian books, you just have to accept that the sun isn't in the north, and that you don't need kangaroos in your design! Having said that, The Designers Manual is quite old now, and much thinking has moved on, but still worth reading.
We don't have one climate in Britain, and that's where observation and learning about the local climate, culture etc., comes in. You can learn that after you've got to grips with what permaculture is about. Reading a book about applying permaculture in south east England may not be much more use than an Australian one, if you're on top of a Welsh mountain! It may even encourage you to do the wrong things! The design you come up with for your site may be totally different to the design you would do for your neighbour with an identical site. Part of your observation is likely to be learning traditional ways of doing things in your area, as they would have evolved over long periods to use local resources, and work in the climate, but it's also useful to know of ideas from all over the world, and be able to pick some that could be adapted.
So read widely about what permaculture is about, and get ideas from different places that you may one day be able to adapt for where you are, and learn the local landscape, culture and traditions, and observe your site for a while. Then start designing.
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hardworkinghippy
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Well said John.
When I saw your drawing the first thing I wanted to know is how the land slopes and how you'll distribute the water collected from roofs. Maybe that's not an issue in Wales !
The next thing is how often you walk around the plot and to where and why and how you'll distribute the waste from animal sheds or the manure you'll get from neighbours to your plants. If the dumping area is well placed, your chickens will do most of the work for you.
When I saw your drawing the first thing I wanted to know is how the land slopes and how you'll distribute the water collected from roofs. Maybe that's not an issue in Wales !
The next thing is how often you walk around the plot and to where and why and how you'll distribute the waste from animal sheds or the manure you'll get from neighbours to your plants. If the dumping area is well placed, your chickens will do most of the work for you.
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featherstick
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Oscar, I'll have a browse of Johns library then, he may have something more localised ( and drier ) 
John, I think I need "Permaculture for Dummies", do you have a copy ?
HWH, the field is completely flat and quite well drained. I haven't done any soil tests apart from squeezing a handful together and throwing it at the ground. It sticks together in my hand but breaks apart when it hits the ground, similar to the soil back in Kent, perhaps a little stickier. My first soil task is to put a load of organic material on beds and cover it with cardboard and black plastic for at least 6 months. I am undecided whether to plough the organic matter in or leave it on top. On top is currently favourite unless I learn different. I don't think manure is going to be difficult to find, there are cows, sheep and horses all around. I hope that the riding school nearby might want to dump their dung over the hedge for me, but I haven't spoken to them yet.
I intend to put 10 black IBC containers between the barn and the hedge, in addition to the 1000+ litre collection tank already there. I may have to raise some of these in order to get sufficient head to irrigate field 1, I believe they can be stacked so a simple system of filling the top IBCs from the roof and routing the overflows to the bottom IBCs should work. If that isn't enough to see me through summer then I have mains water and a spring just outside the boundary in an abandoned patch of land. As an aside, I'm wondering if the black, south-facing IBCs would pick up enough heat through the daytime to help prevent frost if the water was circulated through surface pipes in nearby growing beds. Worth a go for the cost of some hose and a pump.
Will the chickens spread the manure for me ? I'd like to give them as much room as possible but worry about foxes, some people suggest an electric fence will keep foxes out - have you tried this ?
John, I think I need "Permaculture for Dummies", do you have a copy ?
HWH, the field is completely flat and quite well drained. I haven't done any soil tests apart from squeezing a handful together and throwing it at the ground. It sticks together in my hand but breaks apart when it hits the ground, similar to the soil back in Kent, perhaps a little stickier. My first soil task is to put a load of organic material on beds and cover it with cardboard and black plastic for at least 6 months. I am undecided whether to plough the organic matter in or leave it on top. On top is currently favourite unless I learn different. I don't think manure is going to be difficult to find, there are cows, sheep and horses all around. I hope that the riding school nearby might want to dump their dung over the hedge for me, but I haven't spoken to them yet.
I intend to put 10 black IBC containers between the barn and the hedge, in addition to the 1000+ litre collection tank already there. I may have to raise some of these in order to get sufficient head to irrigate field 1, I believe they can be stacked so a simple system of filling the top IBCs from the roof and routing the overflows to the bottom IBCs should work. If that isn't enough to see me through summer then I have mains water and a spring just outside the boundary in an abandoned patch of land. As an aside, I'm wondering if the black, south-facing IBCs would pick up enough heat through the daytime to help prevent frost if the water was circulated through surface pipes in nearby growing beds. Worth a go for the cost of some hose and a pump.
Will the chickens spread the manure for me ? I'd like to give them as much room as possible but worry about foxes, some people suggest an electric fence will keep foxes out - have you tried this ?
I'd do a course if I thought I could retain it in such a short period, sadly my brain has burned out, so although I can remember the part number of a transformer I used to repair a monitor in 1994 I can't remember my wifes mobile phone number. This is part of my reason for doing the smallholding thing now, while I still can ( just, slowly ) learn the skills.featherstick wrote:Indeed John. I found it really useful for our little 2-up 2-down Victorian terraced house, about as far removed from the book's assumptions as you could get, but the principles were valid and so it worked.
Perhaps I should do a course too.
The Introduction Course is a good place to start. It normally lasts two days, although there are some one day ones. It's enough to get started, and see if you want to go further, and if nothing else is a nice break with some nice people.
Having done the Introduction Course, there's the Design Course that goes into a lot more detail, and takes two weeks or is spread out over several months. You then discover that this is still part of the introduction, as it covers so much!
The important thing is to learn, and follow, the basics:
3 Ethics
12 Principles*
Some basic surveying and design techniques
The rest can be picked up gradually from books, YouTube and meeting people. It all depends on how you learn best.
The big thing is to learn to think differently, and accept that permaculture isn't some weird cult practised by a bunch of hippies, but a very practical set of guidance that can be used for any aspect of life. It's like learning a language. After a while you learn to think permaculture when you do anything.
You don't do permaculture in a corner of your garden, while trashing the planet in the rest of your life either, but that's where you may start. No one can change their entire life overnight, and none of us are perfect. It will be a long slow transition for most people (Principle: Use small & slow solutions). However, when making a big change, like moving to a new site with the aim of making it sustainable, learn and follow the guidance before going off in the wrong direction, probably with a broad scale plan, and then work on small areas gradually when you know how they fit into the big picture (Principle: Design from patterns to details).
* There are lots of variants of the Principles, and people adapt them to suit their needs, but they all aim to achieve the same outcome. As someone famous once said, "Rules are made for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men", so once you understand what permaculture is really about, you should be wise enough to tweak things, rather than blindly following the rules!
Having done the Introduction Course, there's the Design Course that goes into a lot more detail, and takes two weeks or is spread out over several months. You then discover that this is still part of the introduction, as it covers so much!
The important thing is to learn, and follow, the basics:
3 Ethics
12 Principles*
Some basic surveying and design techniques
The rest can be picked up gradually from books, YouTube and meeting people. It all depends on how you learn best.
The big thing is to learn to think differently, and accept that permaculture isn't some weird cult practised by a bunch of hippies, but a very practical set of guidance that can be used for any aspect of life. It's like learning a language. After a while you learn to think permaculture when you do anything.
You don't do permaculture in a corner of your garden, while trashing the planet in the rest of your life either, but that's where you may start. No one can change their entire life overnight, and none of us are perfect. It will be a long slow transition for most people (Principle: Use small & slow solutions). However, when making a big change, like moving to a new site with the aim of making it sustainable, learn and follow the guidance before going off in the wrong direction, probably with a broad scale plan, and then work on small areas gradually when you know how they fit into the big picture (Principle: Design from patterns to details).
* There are lots of variants of the Principles, and people adapt them to suit their needs, but they all aim to achieve the same outcome. As someone famous once said, "Rules are made for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men", so once you understand what permaculture is really about, you should be wise enough to tweak things, rather than blindly following the rules!
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hardworkinghippy
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I've been using Permaculture principles since I did an intro course in 1984 - learned as much as I could then did a Design course in France about four years ago. As John says, it just become natural after a while to always think of the ways you can do something for as many uses as possible in the easiest, most practical way.
I'm not lazy but I've got far too much to do and I'm not 20 any more, so using nature to work for you is just my cup of tea.
Catweazle, you don't need to dig anything, I never dig. Just cover the earth with anything organic and leave it. The worms and moles will do the rest.
We put some of our tanks on red bricks to get a good flow. Ours are south-facing too and although we had a long spell of 0° to -17° this winter the tanks never froze and none of the connectors show any signs of leaks.
I'm not lazy but I've got far too much to do and I'm not 20 any more, so using nature to work for you is just my cup of tea.
Catweazle, you don't need to dig anything, I never dig. Just cover the earth with anything organic and leave it. The worms and moles will do the rest.
We put some of our tanks on red bricks to get a good flow. Ours are south-facing too and although we had a long spell of 0° to -17° this winter the tanks never froze and none of the connectors show any signs of leaks.
Last edited by hardworkinghippy on 25 Oct 2012, 16:00, edited 1 time in total.
Our blah blah blah blog is HERE
Try an Introduction Course with Jan Martin and Angie Polkey. Jan lives near Aberaeron and is an ecologist, so could be a very useful person to know. It's only two days, and no one will tell you off if nothing sinks inCatweazle wrote:I'd do a course if I thought I could retain it in such a short period
.HWH, until I saw your picture above, it hadn't occurred to me that the IBCs, with their trellis frame and radiating heat at night, would make an ideal place to grow beans. Like a walled garden.
I'm going to look at all your other photos now, they really do tell a thousand words.
So, after a little more thought. The IBCs replace part of the hedge at the south side of the barn. A roof from the barn to the top of the IBCs will create a small animal shelter in field 2 which by virtue of the volume of water should be ( relatively ) cool in summer and warm in winter. The south side of the IBCs will support something that needs a strong trellis, perhaps a rotation of beans, cucumbers etc or maybe even a grapevine. Two shipping containers - tool and various storage - can go either side of the IBCs to make a small courtyard. The doors will open directly into field 1 where the tools will be most needed and the doors can be seen from the house and accessed by the dogs who will be allowed in that field.
I'm going to look at all your other photos now, they really do tell a thousand words.
So, after a little more thought. The IBCs replace part of the hedge at the south side of the barn. A roof from the barn to the top of the IBCs will create a small animal shelter in field 2 which by virtue of the volume of water should be ( relatively ) cool in summer and warm in winter. The south side of the IBCs will support something that needs a strong trellis, perhaps a rotation of beans, cucumbers etc or maybe even a grapevine. Two shipping containers - tool and various storage - can go either side of the IBCs to make a small courtyard. The doors will open directly into field 1 where the tools will be most needed and the doors can be seen from the house and accessed by the dogs who will be allowed in that field.
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featherstick
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I'll have one. PM on its way.JohnB wrote:No, but I've got a few copies of Graham Burnett's "Beginners Guide to Permaculture" that I suppose I'll have to sell a bit cheaper, as a new edition is on the way!Catweazle wrote:John, I think I need "Permaculture for Dummies", do you have a copy ?
"Tea's a good drink - keeps you going"
Hey featherstick,
I would suggest doing a course if you have the time and money, as it can be great fun. However I started smallholding in a sustainable way without doing a course.I did read around the topic of permaculture and subscribed to Permaculture Mag, then 8 years later did a full design course because I thought I might like to teach permaculture.I didn't learn much on the course but had a great time and gained inspiration.
The most important thing we did as a family was to commit to living by the three permaculture ethics. Once we had done that every decision we made was put through the filter of these ethics, whether it was our diet or who we bank with.
I do have a design background and I agree with John that a really important thing is to start thinking like a designer. Seporate your right and left brain thinking so that ideas can flow and be recorded without judgement, then can be analysed and the useful stuff extracted.
These days I find I do shed loads of research into specific topics none of which have the title 'permaculture'. It might be forest gardening or agroforestry or green building or vermiculture etc etc, but permaculture is definitely a great starting point.
Nick
I would suggest doing a course if you have the time and money, as it can be great fun. However I started smallholding in a sustainable way without doing a course.I did read around the topic of permaculture and subscribed to Permaculture Mag, then 8 years later did a full design course because I thought I might like to teach permaculture.I didn't learn much on the course but had a great time and gained inspiration.
The most important thing we did as a family was to commit to living by the three permaculture ethics. Once we had done that every decision we made was put through the filter of these ethics, whether it was our diet or who we bank with.
I do have a design background and I agree with John that a really important thing is to start thinking like a designer. Seporate your right and left brain thinking so that ideas can flow and be recorded without judgement, then can be analysed and the useful stuff extracted.
These days I find I do shed loads of research into specific topics none of which have the title 'permaculture'. It might be forest gardening or agroforestry or green building or vermiculture etc etc, but permaculture is definitely a great starting point.
Nick
In search of inspiration, I have bought a copy of "How to grow more vegetables and fruits, nuts, berries, grains and other crops than you ever thought possible on less land than you can imagine" by John Jeavons.
I'm impressed by the detail on building soil and the overall no-nonsense approach.
Jeavons aims to grow with the fewest external inputs possible, dedicating up to 60% of the available land to growing green compost and humus building crops. Based on 40 years of running the Ecology Action research project, he has some interesting views on compost that I haven't read before.
He does, however, endorse a good deep dig as the best way to prepare neglected soil - no doubt some PS-ers will have something to say about that.
I'm impressed by the detail on building soil and the overall no-nonsense approach.
Jeavons aims to grow with the fewest external inputs possible, dedicating up to 60% of the available land to growing green compost and humus building crops. Based on 40 years of running the Ecology Action research project, he has some interesting views on compost that I haven't read before.
He does, however, endorse a good deep dig as the best way to prepare neglected soil - no doubt some PS-ers will have something to say about that.
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hardworkinghippy
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I haven't dug soil for about thirty years but that's because I'm a lazy bitch and you don't really need to dig to grow good food.
Just do what you think is right, don't worry about what other people do.
Start a dug patch and a no-dig patch and see what happens. Either way, you'll get crops from the garden.
Just do what you think is right, don't worry about what other people do.
Start a dug patch and a no-dig patch and see what happens. Either way, you'll get crops from the garden.
Our blah blah blah blog is HERE