How Many People Can the World Really Hold?

How will oil depletion affect the way we live? What will the economic impact be? How will agriculture change? Will we thrive or merely survive?

Moderator: Peak Moderation

User avatar
PS_RalphW
Posts: 6978
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Cambridge

Post by PS_RalphW »

vtsnowedin wrote: Just for frendly debate, no duels required. :?
Get rid of Capitalism and replace it with What? What other system has ever produced truth, justice and food for all? Or even a close proximity of a productive economy with surpluses of food and products? Where is the model you think the world should turn to that exists in the real world and not in the pages of some manifesto.
OK lets look for examples in history.

Periods and civilisations when populations were allowed to thrive and express themselves without running into resource constraints or dabbling in conquest (military or economic).

Hmm. Early Islamic cultures were quite good at the academic freedom bit. Mostly based on opening up new trade routes, with money lending with interest a capital offense. Not be confused with the more extreme Islamic trends we see today, it was at the time a stabilising influence and a set moral values which were held up above the petty squablings of the ruling classes.

A bit like the monestry movements of early medieval Europe. They were so good at being poor and hardworking and reliable that they ended up immensly wealthy and corrupt and greedy. C'est la vie.

Bhuddist societies have always been a more stable and environmentally friendly in practice. An emphasis on satisfying 'spiritual' needs with as small as possible impact on the 'natural' world.

Polynesian societies managed stable and relatively strife free societies for centuries on extremely limited resources. Basically stone age tribal monarchies, the very visibly finite resources concentrating the mind wonderfully. If you were young and ambitious you set sail into the big blue and hoped you hit land before the water ran out.

Scotland in the reformation has a reputation for hard working industriousness, but the underlying source of that progress was a mixture of fossil fuels and an expanding economic empire with lots of slavery.

There are plenty of alternative economic systems. Share cropping, medieval common land, etc. etc. Which will work best depends on the local geography and resources available.
User avatar
emordnilap
Posts: 14815
Joined: 05 Sep 2007, 16:36
Location: here

Post by emordnilap »

stevecook172001 wrote:To be honest, I look at posts like this one from VT and I am basically struck dumb in terms of knowing where to even start with them given that they are so far off the radar of rational discourse.
That's why I rarely engage with them at any length. There are quite a few 'I'm alright Jack' posters on here who are worth ignoring or, as with vt's post, responding to tersely.

You and a few others often seem to have the patience to try to educate (sadly, it's the converted are usually more appreciative of it!) but life's really short as it is.

At least vt said there is enough 'food for all', which is true, though capitalism as we know it distributes it grossly unfairly, when it distributes it.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
Tarrel
Posts: 2466
Joined: 29 Nov 2011, 22:32
Location: Ross-shire, Scotland
Contact:

Post by Tarrel »

I don't see why it has to turn into a personal attack though. Attack the argument, sure, but why attack the person or their nation? There seems to be an implication that Americans in general are stupid, which is by no means the case.
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.
User avatar
UndercoverElephant
Posts: 13498
Joined: 10 Mar 2008, 00:00
Location: UK

Post by UndercoverElephant »

Tarrel wrote:I don't see why it has to turn into a personal attack though. Attack the argument, sure, but why attack the person or their nation? There seems to be an implication that Americans in general are stupid, which is by no means the case.
It's not their stupidity that bothers me. It is the fact that even "normal" Americans are so right wing that from a European perspective, they are out of sight. Capitalism delivers truth and justice??
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
Little John

Post by Little John »

Tarrel wrote:I don't see why it has to turn into a personal attack though. Attack the argument, sure, but why attack the person or their nation? There seems to be an implication that Americans in general are stupid, which is by no means the case.
In principle, Americans, in terms of their basic intelligence, are likely to be no more stupid than anyone else. Why would they be? The American culture, however, is deeply stupid. This, unfortunately, means that in terms of some of their beliefs and ideology on which those beliefs are based, many Americans are, in practice, deeply stupid.
Last edited by Little John on 25 Oct 2012, 15:32, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
emordnilap
Posts: 14815
Joined: 05 Sep 2007, 16:36
Location: here

Post by emordnilap »

Tarrel wrote:I don't see why it has to turn into a personal attack though. Attack the argument, sure, but why attack the person or their nation? There seems to be an implication that Americans in general are stupid, which is by no means the case.
Come on T, it's the insular selfishness plus the inability/unwillingness to see the wider picture by a certain mindset that's the problem (and should be attacked), which is quite different to attacking a single person or nation.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
User avatar
emordnilap
Posts: 14815
Joined: 05 Sep 2007, 16:36
Location: here

Post by emordnilap »

stevecook172001 wrote:in terms of some of their beliefs and ideology on which those beliefs are based, many Americans are, in practice, deeply stupid.
While I wouldn't have put it quite like that, it does remind me of the many, many cases of CEOs/military/government people etc speaking out about the stupidity in corporations/military/government after they leave said organisations.

It happens so often as to prove your point, if fact - intelligent people acting unintelligently (follow da money) is why the biosphere is in deep trouble.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
Post Reply