Scotland gets vote on independence

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 15 Oct 2012, 15:22

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/pm-and-salmon ... dum-deal-1

how long before somerset and the west country generally can throw off the london yoke

extractorfan · Post by **extractorfan** » 15 Oct 2012, 15:54

and Cornwall

In fact, didn't the Isle of dogs declare independence in the 70's?

Janco2 · Post by **Janco2** » 15 Oct 2012, 17:14

Cornish people have been inundated with others from various parts of the country.
We don't hear many Cornish accents like we did when we were youngsters!

Totally_Baffled · Post by **Totally_Baffled** » 16 Oct 2012, 19:16

In these economically turbulent times it is beyond me why the 5cots want to risk independence - they could quickly end up as Greece or Ireland mark II

Its not as if they will get all the oil money given the investment is international

Tarrel · Post by **Tarrel** » 16 Oct 2012, 20:21

There was a rather depressing article on the BBC website yesterday, entitled "Independence - Braveheart or iPad?". Apparently a polling company had posed a hypothetical question to a sample group; "If Independence cost you £500 in your pocket, would you vote for it?" - 20-odd percent said yes. The second question was; "If Independence made you £500 better off, would you vote for it?" - 60-odd percent said yes!

It's a shame that many people could be influenced on such a major issue by short-term thinking.

I think TB's point is valid in the current paradigm. But the world could be a very different place by 2015. Given its low population, Scotland has the potential to be nearly self-sufficient. It has a third of the UK's land area, but only a tenth of the population.

The potential for renewable energy is huge. Continued major investment in wind energy could free up some of the existing hydro schemes to be re-purposed as energy-storage solutions, thus removing one of the major disadvantages of wind power.

There is a lot of good quality arable land in Scotland (not all of it, admittedly), and the climate is fairly benign (unlike the common perception).

The education system is effective, and can (and does) produce capable, well-qualified contributors to any future economy.

As the future scarcity and high cost of fossil fuels make global trade increasingly unviable, I believe it is the nations that have the greatest capability to be self-sufficient that will thrive. Those that rely on a high level of interconnectivity are more likely to struggle.

Admittedly, none of the above would prevent Scotland becoming a target for predatory aggressors who seek what it has, and its small size and modest economy would make it difficult for it to maintain an effective defensive deterrent. However, there are many other nations also in this position.

There are some very difficult questions to be considered by the SNP, and the wider "Yes" campaign, as they start to flesh out what an independent Scotland would look like, and how it would work, before presenting this as the "product" that they wish the Scottish people to buy. I personally believe they should be doing this thinking against an assumption of zero growth and a contraction of global trade but, as has been stated many times on this forum, it's unlikely that any politician is going to even dare whisper this as a possibility.

So, we'll probably have a couple of years of the "no" campaign pointing to all the flaws in the "Yes" campaign's plans, pointing out how an independent Scotland couldn't be "competitive" or "hold its own on the world stage", etc. In response, the "Yes" campaign will probably do a lot of ducking and diving, and maybe kicking the can down the road on some issues. They'll both be framing their arguments in the present, rather than thinking about what the future will look like.

Well, that's what I think anyway.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 16 Oct 2012, 20:36

It seems to me that England needs Scotland a lot more than Scotland needs England.

extractorfan · Post by **extractorfan** » 16 Oct 2012, 21:42

Scots have the same puerile aspirations as the English, as a general rule.

They'll sell their food for iPads and so will we (the English, in case you were wondering).

Is that how you spell purile? Sent from my iPhone

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 16 Oct 2012, 21:54

There are post peak uses for iPads

http://www.santabanta.com/video.asp?video=10933

Tarrel · Post by **Tarrel** » 16 Oct 2012, 22:02

Totally_Baffled · Post by **Totally_Baffled** » 17 Oct 2012, 07:34

biffvernon wrote:It seems to me that England needs Scotland a lot more than Scotland needs England.

How do you come to that conclusion?

On second thoughts - dont answer that, I swear you are playing devils advocate half the time Biff lol

I am all for Scottish independence - if the people want it - I just dont think its in their interest. In a post peak world, I think Tarrel is probably right, Scotland looks far more favourable, but immigration from England would soon equalise that if things got that bad. So I am not sure that is big selling point.

In our current economic system if Scotland takes its fair share of the debt, I dont think a independent scottish currency would last long, if they join the euro they will end up like Ireland or Greece and have no "independence" on tax or monetary policy which seems to miss the point of leaving the union. If they stay with the pound then they are at the mercy of the BOE and cannot borrow and spend independently either!

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 17 Oct 2012, 09:06

No, I was being serious, and your suggestion that there would be migration from England rather lends weight to my point.

In the short term, without Scotland, England would be ruled by a big Conservative Party majority. In the longer term, localism will be the winner the world over.

Tarrel · Post by **Tarrel** » 17 Oct 2012, 09:54

immigration from England would soon equalise that if things got that bad.

Wouldn't take long to rebuild Hadrian's Wall, and if all else fails, there's always the "line up in a row, yell aggressively and lift up the kilt" approach.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 17 Oct 2012, 10:21

The big if, if Scotland could build long-term renewable energy infrastructure, there is a huge market for tourism, people moved around the country by electric train/bus or on inland waterways. Solve the midge problem and you're, errmm, cooking with gas.

That poll, Tarrel. If it's £500 plus or minus per year then the responses were fairly sensible, if predictable. If it's a one-off, then yes extractorfan, it's puerile.

Totally_Baffled · Post by **Totally_Baffled** » 17 Oct 2012, 11:43

biffvernon wrote:No, I was being serious, and your suggestion that there would be migration from England rather lends weight to my point.

In the short term, without Scotland, England would be ruled by a big Conservative Party majority. In the longer term, localism will be the winner the world over.

So England "needs" Scotland because without them we will end up with the tory party in power more often.

Right.....leave it there I think

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 17 Oct 2012, 13:27

Totally_Baffled wrote:
biffvernon wrote:No, I was being serious, and your suggestion that there would be migration from England rather lends weight to my point.

In the short term, without Scotland, England would be ruled by a big Conservative Party majority. In the longer term, localism will be the winner the world over.
So England "needs" Scotland because without them we will end up with the tory party in power more often.

Right.....leave it there I think

LOL