Well...a total breakdown in the global monetary system might do it.clv101 wrote:How do you suggest implementing this halt?sushil_yadav wrote:Production of thousands of consumer goods and services must stop immediately.
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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UndercoverElephant
- Posts: 13500
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"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
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emordnilap
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Or we could all start now. I mean, stop. s_y uses a lot of words to say something very simple.UndercoverElephant wrote:Well...a total breakdown in the global monetary system might do it.clv101 wrote:How do you suggest implementing this halt?sushil_yadav wrote:Production of thousands of consumer goods and services must stop immediately.
Every time you spend money, think what he's saying. Every time you spend money, what are you doing?
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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Little John
That won't happen though E because humans tend to act to optimally as opposed to maximally in any particular economic context due to limitations of information available to them. These limitations can be based on ignorance, stupidity or desperation. But, for whatever reason, there will always be limitations on information.emordnilap wrote:Or we could all start now. I mean, stop. s_y uses a lot of words to say something very simple.UndercoverElephant wrote:Well...a total breakdown in the global monetary system might do it.clv101 wrote: How do you suggest implementing this halt?
Every time you spend money, think what he's saying. Every time you spend money, what are you doing?
Of course, in the end, short term optimal strategies for behaviour tend to become synonymous with long term maximal ones given enough time. All of life evolves on an optimal basis (because it can't plan ahead) but, eventually, all of the optimal strategies that do not, over a long period of time, become synonymous with maximal ones tend to die out. Our problem as humans living in the industrial age, though, is that we don't have the time or the resources to wait. The earth will burn before our optimal strategies for behaviour catch up with our maximal long term needs. The only way we can avoid catastrophe is if there is an imposed set of behavioural selection pressures from above that force our long term maximal needs and our short term optimal needs to synchronise.
It won't happen by simply expecting people to do the "right thing".
Last edited by Little John on 24 Sep 2012, 19:52, edited 2 times in total.
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emordnilap
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Oh, I know and what you say is correct. I'm just saying, s_y is right, I agree with him and the answer is there in plain sight.stevecook172001 wrote:It won't happen by simply expecting people to do the "right thing".
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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RenewableCandy
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sushil_yadav
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Saving environment in an Industrial Society is an impossibility.....Environment can only be saved by stopping Industrial Activity.....No individual effort or lifestyle change can help in saving environment in an Industrial Society.....One prime example is the claim that a Vegan or Vegetarian Lifestyle can save animals / environment.
An Industrial Society cannot be Vegan or Vegetarian........Only a Non-Industrial Society can be Vegan or Vegetarian....Only a Non-Industrial Society can come close to being Vegan or Vegetarian.......Only a non-industrial society can save animals.
There can be no environmental solutions in an Industrial Society because Industrial Activity itself is the cause of environmental destruction.
Industrial Society kills animals for food......Industrial Society also kills wild animals in forests and fish in the oceans with Industrial Activity [on the land and in the sea].
Those who are not killing animals for food are still killing animals, directly or indirectly, for production and use of thousands of consumer goods and services.
A Vegan "Industrial Society" is an oxymoron.....an impossibility......an absurdity.
A Vegetarian "Industrial Society" is an oxymoron.....an impossibility......an absurdity.
If millions of people become vegan / vegetarian in Industrial Society it is not going to save animals.......Even if billions of people become vegan / vegetarian in Industrial Society it is not going to save animals......Even if the entire population becomes vegan / vegetarian in Industrial Society it is not going to save animals.
Industrial Society is killing Trillions of animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses.......Industrial Fishing is killing Trillions of Fish in the oceans......As long as Industrial Society exists all this killing will continue.
In Industrial Society animals are killed for food in Slaughter Houses and Wild Animals are killed when Forests are destroyed for production of thousands of consumer goods and services.
Even if killing of animals for food is totally stopped in Industrial Society [which is an impossibility of course] killing of animals will still continue because Trillions of Wild Animals in Forests are being killed by Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services......Trillions of Fish are being killed in the oceans due to movement of hundreds of thousands of Industrial Ships and discharge of trillions of tonnes of Industrial Waste into oceans......The oceans have turned warmer and acidic, there are oxygen-deprived dead zones in oceans.....All this has resulted in killing of corals and a large number of marine creatures.
Wild Animals in forests and Fish in the Oceans are being killed every moment by Energy Generation Industry, Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Oil Drilling Industry, Oil Refining Industry, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Network, Millions of kilometers of Air Routes and Shipping Lanes.
Moreover we cannot save environment by saving only animals.....We have to save all biodiversity and ecosystems.....We have to save Animals, Trees, Air, water and Land.....We have to save Forests, Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Air/ Atmosphere, Fertile Soil, Underground Water.....everything......Which can only happen in a non-industrial society.......In the absence of Industrial Machines only limited destruction of environment was possible.
Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society were closest to being Vegan / Vegetarian because the number of animals they killed was very limited......There was no Industrial Activity, so killing of animals by Industrial Activity was absent.....And the number of animals they could kill for food was very limited, very small, millions of times less than animals killed by Industrial Society.
A Vegan "Industrial Society" is an oxymoron.....an impossibility......an absurdity.
A Vegetarian "Industrial Society" is an oxymoron.....an impossibility......an absurdity.
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Every Citizen of Industrial Society is a serial killer of Nature……..Every Citizen of Industrial Society is a serial killer of animals, trees, air, water and soil.
In Industrial Society millions of people are killing Nature directly [through Industrial Activity]…….Billions of people are killing Nature indirectly [by buying and selling consumer goods and services produced by Industrial Activity].
Industrial Activity kills billions of Animals and Trees every day…..Billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous Industrial waste kills the Soil, Rivers, Oceans and Air every day.
Citizens of Industrial Society are using Hundreds / Thousands of Consumer Goods and Services.... All Consumer Goods and Services are produced by killing Nature…..by killing Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land……directly or indirectly.
Raw material for Industry is obtained by Mining and Logging companies by destroying Forests….by killing Animals, Trees and Soil……. Manufacturing Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Transportation Industry, Recycling Industry and others produce Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste that kills Air, Water and Soil every day.
If we divide total number of Animals and Trees killed every day by total Industrial Population we get per-capita killing of Animals and Trees.
If we divide billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous Industrial Waste produced by Industrial Activity every day by total Industrial Population we get a measure of per-capita killing of Air, water and Soil.
If we divide Billions of acres of Fertile Soil killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt by total Industrial Population we get per-capita killing of Fertile Soil.
Every Citizen of Industrial Society is a serial killer of Nature….Those who produce consumer goods and services …….Those who sell consumer goods and services…….Those who buy consumer goods and services…….They are all are serial killers of nature.
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Discussion cannot save environment........Money cannot save environment......Technology cannot save environment......Environmental Organizations cannot save environment.......Activism cannot save environment.
Animal Species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment through discussion......They did not even have a language for discussing environmental issues.
Animal species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment with money ........They had no money.
Animal species, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society did not save environment with modern technology........They had no modern technology......It was absence of modern technology that saved environment in pre-industrial societies........Over-exploitation of ecosystems became possible only because of Industrial Machines.
Animal species, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society did not save environment with the help of Environmental Organizations or Activism........They had no environmental organizations.
Animal Species did not destroy environment for millions of years.......Hunter Gatherer Society destroyed very little environment during a million years of existence......Agrarian Society destroyed very little environment [compared to Industrial Society] over a period of 10,000 years.
There is only one way to save environment.......Destroy less......Minimize the list of things that are destroying environment.
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
An Industrial Society cannot be Vegan or Vegetarian........Only a Non-Industrial Society can be Vegan or Vegetarian....Only a Non-Industrial Society can come close to being Vegan or Vegetarian.......Only a non-industrial society can save animals.
There can be no environmental solutions in an Industrial Society because Industrial Activity itself is the cause of environmental destruction.
Industrial Society kills animals for food......Industrial Society also kills wild animals in forests and fish in the oceans with Industrial Activity [on the land and in the sea].
Those who are not killing animals for food are still killing animals, directly or indirectly, for production and use of thousands of consumer goods and services.
A Vegan "Industrial Society" is an oxymoron.....an impossibility......an absurdity.
A Vegetarian "Industrial Society" is an oxymoron.....an impossibility......an absurdity.
If millions of people become vegan / vegetarian in Industrial Society it is not going to save animals.......Even if billions of people become vegan / vegetarian in Industrial Society it is not going to save animals......Even if the entire population becomes vegan / vegetarian in Industrial Society it is not going to save animals.
Industrial Society is killing Trillions of animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses.......Industrial Fishing is killing Trillions of Fish in the oceans......As long as Industrial Society exists all this killing will continue.
In Industrial Society animals are killed for food in Slaughter Houses and Wild Animals are killed when Forests are destroyed for production of thousands of consumer goods and services.
Even if killing of animals for food is totally stopped in Industrial Society [which is an impossibility of course] killing of animals will still continue because Trillions of Wild Animals in Forests are being killed by Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services......Trillions of Fish are being killed in the oceans due to movement of hundreds of thousands of Industrial Ships and discharge of trillions of tonnes of Industrial Waste into oceans......The oceans have turned warmer and acidic, there are oxygen-deprived dead zones in oceans.....All this has resulted in killing of corals and a large number of marine creatures.
Wild Animals in forests and Fish in the Oceans are being killed every moment by Energy Generation Industry, Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Oil Drilling Industry, Oil Refining Industry, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Network, Millions of kilometers of Air Routes and Shipping Lanes.
Moreover we cannot save environment by saving only animals.....We have to save all biodiversity and ecosystems.....We have to save Animals, Trees, Air, water and Land.....We have to save Forests, Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Air/ Atmosphere, Fertile Soil, Underground Water.....everything......Which can only happen in a non-industrial society.......In the absence of Industrial Machines only limited destruction of environment was possible.
Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society were closest to being Vegan / Vegetarian because the number of animals they killed was very limited......There was no Industrial Activity, so killing of animals by Industrial Activity was absent.....And the number of animals they could kill for food was very limited, very small, millions of times less than animals killed by Industrial Society.
A Vegan "Industrial Society" is an oxymoron.....an impossibility......an absurdity.
A Vegetarian "Industrial Society" is an oxymoron.....an impossibility......an absurdity.
.
.
Every Citizen of Industrial Society is a serial killer of Nature……..Every Citizen of Industrial Society is a serial killer of animals, trees, air, water and soil.
In Industrial Society millions of people are killing Nature directly [through Industrial Activity]…….Billions of people are killing Nature indirectly [by buying and selling consumer goods and services produced by Industrial Activity].
Industrial Activity kills billions of Animals and Trees every day…..Billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous Industrial waste kills the Soil, Rivers, Oceans and Air every day.
Citizens of Industrial Society are using Hundreds / Thousands of Consumer Goods and Services.... All Consumer Goods and Services are produced by killing Nature…..by killing Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land……directly or indirectly.
Raw material for Industry is obtained by Mining and Logging companies by destroying Forests….by killing Animals, Trees and Soil……. Manufacturing Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Transportation Industry, Recycling Industry and others produce Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste that kills Air, Water and Soil every day.
If we divide total number of Animals and Trees killed every day by total Industrial Population we get per-capita killing of Animals and Trees.
If we divide billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous Industrial Waste produced by Industrial Activity every day by total Industrial Population we get a measure of per-capita killing of Air, water and Soil.
If we divide Billions of acres of Fertile Soil killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt by total Industrial Population we get per-capita killing of Fertile Soil.
Every Citizen of Industrial Society is a serial killer of Nature….Those who produce consumer goods and services …….Those who sell consumer goods and services…….Those who buy consumer goods and services…….They are all are serial killers of nature.
.
.
Discussion cannot save environment........Money cannot save environment......Technology cannot save environment......Environmental Organizations cannot save environment.......Activism cannot save environment.
Animal Species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment through discussion......They did not even have a language for discussing environmental issues.
Animal species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment with money ........They had no money.
Animal species, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society did not save environment with modern technology........They had no modern technology......It was absence of modern technology that saved environment in pre-industrial societies........Over-exploitation of ecosystems became possible only because of Industrial Machines.
Animal species, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society did not save environment with the help of Environmental Organizations or Activism........They had no environmental organizations.
Animal Species did not destroy environment for millions of years.......Hunter Gatherer Society destroyed very little environment during a million years of existence......Agrarian Society destroyed very little environment [compared to Industrial Society] over a period of 10,000 years.
There is only one way to save environment.......Destroy less......Minimize the list of things that are destroying environment.
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
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kenneal - lagger
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It's life that destroys, or at least changes, the environment as does the weather and tectonic plate movement. The environment is always changing as a result of the above and many other factors. The changes are however usually very small and life adjusts to those changes.
The problem comes when the changes are very large and in a short space of time when life does not have enough time to adjust to the new environment. The problem at the moment is that there are too many people using too many resources in too short a time for the natural environment to adjust without a very considerable loss of species.
It's not industrial society, or meat eating or anything else apart from sheer numbers and their activity that is destroying the environment. If there was less activity from those numbers of people, if we all had the environmental footprint of an Indian peasant say, or the same activity among far fewer numbers, say only a billion of us, there would be less or no problem.
As it is the current level of activity in likely to cause less activity among us which is likely to cause a large drop in numbers. The problem is unchecked exponential growth where ever it occurs. It's a cancer.
The problem comes when the changes are very large and in a short space of time when life does not have enough time to adjust to the new environment. The problem at the moment is that there are too many people using too many resources in too short a time for the natural environment to adjust without a very considerable loss of species.
It's not industrial society, or meat eating or anything else apart from sheer numbers and their activity that is destroying the environment. If there was less activity from those numbers of people, if we all had the environmental footprint of an Indian peasant say, or the same activity among far fewer numbers, say only a billion of us, there would be less or no problem.
As it is the current level of activity in likely to cause less activity among us which is likely to cause a large drop in numbers. The problem is unchecked exponential growth where ever it occurs. It's a cancer.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
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vtsnowedin
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- Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont
Nice summary of the real problem. +1kenneal - lagger wrote:It's life that destroys, or at least changes, the environment as does the weather and tectonic plate movement. The environment is always changing as a result of the above and many other factors. The changes are however usually very small and life adjusts to those changes.
The problem comes when the changes are very large and in a short space of time when life does not have enough time to adjust to the new environment. The problem at the moment is that there are too many people using too many resources in too short a time for the natural environment to adjust without a very considerable loss of species.
It's not industrial society, or meat eating or anything else apart from sheer numbers and their activity that is destroying the environment. If there was less activity from those numbers of people, if we all had the environmental footprint of an Indian peasant say, or the same activity among far fewer numbers, say only a billion of us, there would be less or no problem.
As it is the current level of activity in likely to cause less activity among us which is likely to cause a large drop in numbers. The problem is unchecked exponential growth where ever it occurs. It's a cancer.
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sushil_yadav
- Posts: 189
- Joined: 23 Feb 2006, 14:21
- Location: Delhi , India
All problems of Industrial Society are unsolvable because Industrialization itself is the cause of problems.....Exponential increase in environmental destruction, incidence of cancer, obesity and war/ violence.......Industrialization is the cause of all these problems.
It is important to understand why millions of people are trying to solve all these problems when they can never be solved.
Here is the answer - Billions of people who are not producing food in Industrial Society have to be kept engaged in some work or activity....People would go crazy without work....Therefore unnecessary, meaningless, futile and destructive jobs and professions are created by Industrial Society to keep the Urban Population occupied.
In Hunter_Gatherer Society the entire population was engaged in searching for food.....In Agrarian Society almost the entire population was engaged in producing food [hardly 1 - 2% of population was not producing food].
In Industrial Society 50% of world population is growing food for entire population.....The remaining 50% population is engaged in extra, destructive and unnecessary work....[In America only 5% of population is producing food, That is why America is the Mother of all unnecessary and destructive work in this world].
The population that does not produce food is engaged in Production and Marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services, Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex and All kinds of unnecessary research.
Millions of people are doing unnecessary, meaningless and futile research in Industrial Society in hundreds of fields.
Millions of people in Industrial Society are trying to save Environment which is not possible because Industrial Activity itself is the cause of large scale environmental destruction.
Millions of people in Industrial Society are trying to cure Obesity which is impossible because Obesity is a result of Industrialization.....A result of the switch over from physical work to mental work and easy availability of billions of tonnes of ready-made food.
Millions of people in Industrial Society are trying to cure Cancer which is not possible because Industrialization itself is the cause of cancer.....Industrial Activity has contaminated air, water and soil with billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous carcinogens.
Millions of people in Industrial Society are working with Peace Organizations trying to make the world peaceful.....This is an impossibility because Military Industrial Complex is promoting war and violence by producing and selling billions of tonnes of weapons all over the world.
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Hundreds of professions and millions of jobs have been created in the name of solving the problems of Industrial Society.
The solutions will of course never come because Industrialization itself is the cause of problems.
Millions of people are happy because they are getting jobs and salaries......Governments are happy because they can claim they are doing all they can to solve global problems.
Meanwhile the problems continue getting bigger and bigger day by day, moment by moment.
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Industrial Society has destroyed most of the biodiversity and ecosystems on earth.
Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth....The biggest act of killing, murder and terrorism on earth.
This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" Societies.
Hunter_Gatherer Society was sustainable.....Agrarian Society was sustainable.....The question of Industrial Society being sustainable doesn't arise.
We cannot save environment by destroying more of it.....We cannot save environment by destroying it for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
It is important to understand why millions of people are trying to solve all these problems when they can never be solved.
Here is the answer - Billions of people who are not producing food in Industrial Society have to be kept engaged in some work or activity....People would go crazy without work....Therefore unnecessary, meaningless, futile and destructive jobs and professions are created by Industrial Society to keep the Urban Population occupied.
In Hunter_Gatherer Society the entire population was engaged in searching for food.....In Agrarian Society almost the entire population was engaged in producing food [hardly 1 - 2% of population was not producing food].
In Industrial Society 50% of world population is growing food for entire population.....The remaining 50% population is engaged in extra, destructive and unnecessary work....[In America only 5% of population is producing food, That is why America is the Mother of all unnecessary and destructive work in this world].
The population that does not produce food is engaged in Production and Marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services, Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex and All kinds of unnecessary research.
Millions of people are doing unnecessary, meaningless and futile research in Industrial Society in hundreds of fields.
Millions of people in Industrial Society are trying to save Environment which is not possible because Industrial Activity itself is the cause of large scale environmental destruction.
Millions of people in Industrial Society are trying to cure Obesity which is impossible because Obesity is a result of Industrialization.....A result of the switch over from physical work to mental work and easy availability of billions of tonnes of ready-made food.
Millions of people in Industrial Society are trying to cure Cancer which is not possible because Industrialization itself is the cause of cancer.....Industrial Activity has contaminated air, water and soil with billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous carcinogens.
Millions of people in Industrial Society are working with Peace Organizations trying to make the world peaceful.....This is an impossibility because Military Industrial Complex is promoting war and violence by producing and selling billions of tonnes of weapons all over the world.
.
.
Hundreds of professions and millions of jobs have been created in the name of solving the problems of Industrial Society.
The solutions will of course never come because Industrialization itself is the cause of problems.
Millions of people are happy because they are getting jobs and salaries......Governments are happy because they can claim they are doing all they can to solve global problems.
Meanwhile the problems continue getting bigger and bigger day by day, moment by moment.
.
.
Industrial Society has destroyed most of the biodiversity and ecosystems on earth.
Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth....The biggest act of killing, murder and terrorism on earth.
This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" Societies.
Hunter_Gatherer Society was sustainable.....Agrarian Society was sustainable.....The question of Industrial Society being sustainable doesn't arise.
We cannot save environment by destroying more of it.....We cannot save environment by destroying it for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
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biffvernon
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sushil_yadav
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biffvernon
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RenewableCandy
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About the same number as you yourself have solved by ranting against industrial society using the products of industrial society...for, ooh, how many years is it now and you still haven't managed to change?sushil_yadav wrote:......
And how many Global Problems have been solved by the "short enough" Twitter messages that you bothered to read????
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sushil_yadav
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I have not wasted away my life writing a few lines in one thread, a few lines in the second thread, a few lines in the third thread and so on.....ultimately reaching a total post count of close to 10,000 [yes, I am talking about you] ......At the end of which you don't even know what is the net result of all your 10,000 posts.
I have kept myself to one topic and thread.....And that is precisely why I know what I write.
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If someone is being shot repeatedly do you ask what needs to be done to save the victim?????
If someone is being stabbed repeatedly do you ask what needs to be done to save the victim?????
The cause of environmental destruction is "Industrial Activity".
The cause of environmental destruction is not going to change from day to day, month to month, year to year.
The solution is cessation of Industrial Activity.
The solution is also not going to change from day to day, month to month, year to year.
I am not going to come up with insane solutions like ........."Bring this technology, Bring that technology..........Bring this technology, Bring that technology".
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Overexploitation of nature became possible only because of Industrial Technology.....Without Industrial Technology and Machines only limited destruction of nature was possible.
Trying to save environment with Technology is like trying to extinguish a fire with petrol.
Trying to save environment by changing Industrial Technology is like trying to save a victim of shooting not by stopping the shooting but by changing the Gun.
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Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
I have kept myself to one topic and thread.....And that is precisely why I know what I write.
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If someone is being shot repeatedly do you ask what needs to be done to save the victim?????
If someone is being stabbed repeatedly do you ask what needs to be done to save the victim?????
The cause of environmental destruction is "Industrial Activity".
The cause of environmental destruction is not going to change from day to day, month to month, year to year.
The solution is cessation of Industrial Activity.
The solution is also not going to change from day to day, month to month, year to year.
I am not going to come up with insane solutions like ........."Bring this technology, Bring that technology..........Bring this technology, Bring that technology".
.
.
Overexploitation of nature became possible only because of Industrial Technology.....Without Industrial Technology and Machines only limited destruction of nature was possible.
Trying to save environment with Technology is like trying to extinguish a fire with petrol.
Trying to save environment by changing Industrial Technology is like trying to save a victim of shooting not by stopping the shooting but by changing the Gun.
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Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
Last edited by sushil_yadav on 07 Dec 2012, 13:45, edited 4 times in total.
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emordnilap
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Well at least you can't blame s_y for that. Indeed, there are those who suggest that his best course of action is to take his own advice and remove himself from the living. Those who suggest this have their logic completely backwards.RenewableCandy wrote:About the same number as you yourself have solved by ranting against industrial society using the products of industrial society...for, ooh, how many years is it now and you still haven't managed to change?sushil_yadav wrote:......
And how many Global Problems have been solved by the "short enough" Twitter messages that you bothered to read????
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker