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energy-village
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Post by energy-village »

You're probably right, Steve. Certainly I agree that the current system isn't sustainable; by definition that means it's going to fall sooner or later.

At least switching banks cheers us up. Here's good one from the current bun:
City’s chiefs to ditch Barclays

Council will bank millions with rival

Mr Palmer told Sun City: “People are talking about the need for a culture change in the banking industry and creating competition.

“Politicians say for this to happen High Street customers ought to be voting with their feet.

"There’s no reason why we shouldn’t do the same.”

The amazing move threatens to trigger a wave of withdrawals from the bank, which was fined a record £291million by regulators for fiddling overnight lending rates.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... andal.html
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energy-village
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Post by energy-village »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Aurora wrote:
The Independent - 13/07/12

Banks inquiry branded 'total joke' as key inquisitors excluded

Article continues ...
"This exposes the inquiry as a total whitewash with Andrew Tyrie reaching his conclusions in advance of the meetings.

"We need to get to the bottom of this scandal and I'm therefore setting up my own inquiry into this dreadful mess."
So - excluded ... John Mann who embarrassed Osborne over the pasty tax and Andrea Leadsom who told Osborne that he should apologise to Ed Balls.

Any sign that you might be decent human being capable of independent thought seems to remove you from positions of influence.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Superb (and rather long) article about how significant the LIBOR scandal is going to be, and why it will open the door to revelations about an even bigger and more important scandal: the blatant manipulation of the price of gold and silver.

http://www.financialsense.com/sites/def ... 9-2012.pdf
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

George Osborne has announced a public consultation about sending criminal bankers to prison. Please sign online petition:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/bankers_beh ... g/?aCAGOab
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energy-village
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Post by energy-village »

UndercoverElephant wrote:George Osborne has announced a public consultation about sending criminal bankers to prison. Please sign online petition:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/bankers_beh ... g/?aCAGOab
Done :D.

Call me cynical but if a suggestion comes from Osborne I assume it's smoke and mirrors of some sort. Nevertheless . . .
Aurora

Post by Aurora »

The Independent - 14/07/12

Libor: They all knew – and no one acted

Regulator’s claim it knew nothing thrown into doubt as documents show authorities were told of rate-rigging in 2008.

Article continues ...
The Independent - 14/07/12

John Mann: Andrew Tyrie must leave his committee to do its job

Chaos reigns. There is real anger in all three parties at the chairman of the Treasury Select Committee, who in effect has added himself to the government payroll and has attempted to mothball the Treasury Committee.

As ever politicians remain susceptible to flattery and pretensions of power. Andrew Tyrie has half his conclusions already written as he usurps the powers of his committee.

But has he got the bottle to ask the big questions?

Article continues ...
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

energy-village wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:George Osborne has announced a public consultation about sending criminal bankers to prison. Please sign online petition:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/bankers_beh ... g/?aCAGOab
Done :D.

Call me cynical but if a suggestion comes from Osborne I assume it's smoke and mirrors of some sort. Nevertheless . . .
Nah. He's not capable of much more than scoring cheap political points. When it comes to designing masterplans, or setting up clever illusions...ask somebody else. ;)
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UndercoverElephant
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Uh-huh...

Post by UndercoverElephant »

Another bit of the jigsaw falls into place...

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1342184400.php

Image
So, while Lehman was in the death-throws of collapsing – after Barclays couldn’t be induced to touch them with a “barge pole” - J.P. Morgan “advanced” 138 billion [collateral perhaps?] to Lehman so they could “perform/settle trades” –– mostly, if not all reimbursed/paid for by the Fed. While this “stabilizing trade” was being instituted – short term rates simultaneously careened down to zero from 200 basis points [2 %]. Then, in the immediate aftermath of the collapse – J.P. Morgan’s less than 1 yr. component of their swap book grows by 8 Trillion in one quarter while their overall book was contracting by more than 6 Trillion in notional???

I hope I haven’t lost anyone here because these facts are MUCH STRANGER AND HARDER TO BELIEVE THAN FICTION.

What appears to have happened here: J.P. Morgan did not want to be identifiable as the originator of 8 Trillion worth of less than 1 yr. Swap instruments – so they pre-funded Lehman to strap these positions on - positions they KNEW IN ADVANCE they would inherit once Lehman’s collapse was official. This way – no more unwanted attention would be drawn to J.P. Morgan [the Fed / U.S. Treasury in drag].

Barclays clearly knew how bad the whole situation was – being the last ones to see the horror that was Lehman’s books - and were likely the only counterparty in the proceedings who acted in an informed, financially responsible manner.
So Barclays have pointed the finger at the Bank of England and "Whitehall", and in response the BoE has aggressively denied they issued any instructions, even though it is quite obvious they did exactly that. From this we conclude that some people within government, treasury and BoE did indeed know what was going on, but it is now looking like it wasn't Gordon Brown in charge of the strategy after all. Instead it looks like the US Federal Reserve / Treasury was pulling the strings, and that in addition to condoning/ordering the rigging of LIBOR they were also rigging other markets illegally and they were doing it through the trading desk of JP Morgan Chase.

What we have here is a grand conspiracy being co-ordinated from the very top of legitimate world power - the Presidency and Treasury of the United States of America. The conspiracy involves numerous politicians, several major banks in the UK and US, and the banking regulators, and it involves the systematic rigging not only of LIBOR but also of the price of precious metals. Indeed it looks this systematic, illegal rigging began in the gold market all the way back in 1994. And ultimately the motive wasn't personal gain (at least not directly), but an attempt to prevent the collapse of a global economic system where the fiat US dollar was the world's reserve currency.

What's this got to do with oil?

Here's some background info:

http://fofoa.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/how ... ar_05.html
http://www.henryckliu.com/page162.html

The seeds of this crisis were actually sown in the early 1970's, and this was in response to the collapse of the previous gold-based monetary system. Why did that happen? Because the US was losing the war in Vietnam, and at the same time it was heading towards its own internal peak oil. Other countries were turning their dollars into gold, as was allowed under what was left of the Bretton-Woods system, and the US was running out of bullion, so Nixon "closed the gold window" and unilaterally imposed on the rest of the world a monetary system they would not have agreed to by choice, because it rigs the whole economic system in favour of the US. When the US also passed its own internal peak oil, nothing was left backing the dollar. From that moment onwards, the US was vulnerable to a catastrophe which ultimately destroys the economic hegemony of the US: the system could only keep working if the price of gold could be kept in check. This did not start to become a serious problem until 1994, but from that point onwards the price of gold has NOT been determined by the free market. There has been an invisible hand at work to make sure that the gold price could NOT act as "canary in the mine" and cast doubt on the long-term stability of the fiat-dollar based monetary system. And once you've started down the path of rigging the gold market like that (in relatively good times!), then you certainly can't stop when times get harder. Instead, the interventions have to get more extreme, and harder to hide. So "they" were already manipulating the gold market long before 2008, but when Lehman's was facing bankruptcy in September '08 they reached the point where further manipulation of the gold market wasn't going to be enough to stop the dollar system collapsing. That is why the US Fed/Treasury ended up "in drag", rigging the markets (which markets? how wide does this go?) through JP Morgan. And that is the context in which the LIBOR rate-fiddling in 2008 took place.

Now I may have got this all horribly wrong, but it feels like it is beginning to make a bit more sense to me now. The big decisions that led us into this unholy mess were all the result of the big-decision-maker's hands being forced. The last time those decision-makers actually had an active choice (rather than having their hand forced) was after WWII when the US held all of the trump cards (including massive oil reserves, an undamaged industrial base and half of the world's gold). At that point an agreement had to be made about the way the world's monetary system worked. The UK and other major players tried very hard to implement a system where the fiat currencies would be tied to physical assets, but the US insisted that the whole world should use US dollars and that in order to keep the system "fair", the US would agree to exchange dollars for gold to anyone who demanded it. By the early 70's, a combination of failed foreign policies and peaking domestic oil production led the US to a point of crisis where it could no longer "keep the system fair" without heading towards national insolvency: it was going to run out of gold bullion. So Nixon had no choice but to "close the gold window" and unilaterally impose a fundamentally unfair monetary system on the rest of the world, and from that point onwards the future economic/financial health of the US has been utterly dependent on the price of gold remaining under some sort of control. Since then, the US authorities have had to choose between rigging the gold market, or letting the free market send the price of gold skyrocketing and thus alerting the entire world that the dollar-based fiat money system is doomed. And since 2008 the only way they have managed this is by rigging not only the gold market, but also the official LIBOR rates.

Now also think about Gordon Brown selling off the UK's gold at deliberately depressed prices because a major US bank was in trouble due to being "short on gold" to the point it was going to go under. It is now becoming clear why this happened. It wasn't because the reckless banks had made the wrong bet. On the contrary, they were making bets they "knew" couldn't possibly go wrong, because they knew that the Federal Reserve would do anything possible, legal or illegal, to make sure the price of gold was kept under control. What I still don't understand is why the gold that was sold off at that time was the UK's gold, rather than that of the Fed. There would appear to be two potential answers to that question. The first is that we are missing a crucial piece of information that explains why the UK or Gordon Brown would be compelled to do such a thing (maybe some other scandal they wanted to keep hidden?) And the second is that the Fed couldn't sell any physical gold because it had none left to sell.

Sorry for the very long post. Any thoughts appreciated.

UE
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

But as Chris pointed out a couple of days ago, the gold was a pretty small part of our economy so maybe too much is being made of it.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

biffvernon wrote:But as Chris pointed out a couple of days ago, the gold was a pretty small part of our economy so maybe too much is being made of it.
I think you need to re-read my post, Biff. :)

Gold has been deliberately "kept small" by a systematic rigging of the markets, which is now being exposed via the LIBOR scandal. What matters is not the physical amount of gold involved or the sums of money involved, but the relevance of the price of gold to the whole of the rest of the global monetary/financial system. It has always been crucial, and it has always been necessary to hide that fact.
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raspberry-blower
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Post by raspberry-blower »

UE

Having worked in this sector you are on the right track but this rigging has speeded up with all the deregulation going on. Algorithmic Trading assists with this market rigging as you can then create artificial prices for commodities, shares, etc.
Which is why I think you'll find that LIBOR was being rigged before 2008.

Calculated Risk blog has some old articles on LIBOR including this from the FT in 2007:
The Libor rates are a bit of a fiction. The number on the screen doesn’t always match what we see now,” complains the treasurer of one of the largest City banks.
On your point about everything now being run through the trading desks of large banks such as JP Morgan, it is interesting to note that yesterday JP Morgan reported trading losses had doubled

Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan, only lies when his lips move.
For example
At the analysts meeting, Dimon called the problem "isolated".
No, Jamie, the whole system is rigged - therefore the problem is systemic, not down to "a few rogue traders".
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

raspberry-blower wrote: On your point about everything now being run through the trading desks of large banks such as JP Morgan, it is interesting to note that yesterday JP Morgan reported trading losses had doubled

Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan, only lies when his lips move.
For example
At the analysts meeting, Dimon called the problem "isolated".
No, Jamie, the whole system is rigged - therefore the problem is systemic, not down to "a few rogue traders".
Something tells me this story has a long way to run. :lol:
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Just found this....

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/th ... han-libor/
Governments can't will gold into existence

The new media and the 24-hour news cycle have a great deal to answer for, not least encouraging a political class which would otherwise be happily engaged expensing duck houses into the belief that it should demonstrate perpetual action on our behalf – hence the endless stream of badly drafted legislation from the corridors of Whitehall.

It does, however, reveal things that would otherwise be ignored. The issue of manipulation in the gold market which I wrote about last week is a case in point. The ball of half-truths and downright lies which have surrounded the issue for a long time is beginning to unspool in an issue internet activists kept alive long before it was acknowledged by the mainstream media.

People ask why the issue is important at a time of naked market manipulation of the Libor rate. The answer is simple: the Libor manipulation scandal can be seen as the thin end of the wedge in terms of government market manipulation.

[continues...]
I'm now finding important anti-vested-interests journalism in the Torygraph? The world must have changed.

See the embedded interview. Bloke on CNBC openly spilling the beans!!!
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

http://www.ipe.com/news/how-we-can-fix- ... AFlrvVqOzc
Many who argue against a broad redefinition of Libor point to the potential impact on global credit markets and the $300trn notional of Libor-based derivatives market. It may indeed lead to higher costs for borrowers ranging from Fortune 500 corporations to students trying to fund their college education. Corporations and pension funds that hedge their liabilities via interest rate swaps also may be adversely impacted by a systematic adjustment.

However, the systemic risk to the financial system of doing nothing may be considerably greater. Confidence in the current framework will continue to ebb if additional rate-setting improprieties are uncovered. More banks will likely quit the Libor setting panel if the downside of their presence on the panels begins to outweigh the benefit. The decision to do nothing may lead to greater volatility and eventual irrelevance of one of the most important rates in the market.

Today we stand at the crossroads of Libor's future. Implementing some or all of the steps described here would undoubtedly have a large impact on many aspects of global finance, but if we are successful in restoring its credibility, we may put the global financial system on a firmer footing for many decades to come. If Libor is not reformed, then we will need to find an alternative in short order. Gold anyone?
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

http://www.leadershiponline.co.za/artic ... 12-finance

Heart of the problem

The heart of the problem is, however, probably not just a question of too little regulation but more one of structural deficiencies and the nature of the relationship between governments and financial institutions.

Traditionally, over the centuries, bankers took deposits and lent them out, paying short-term depositors less than they charged for risky or less liquid loans. The risk was borne by banks, not depositors or the governments.

Over many years, and especially after the de-coupling of the American dollar as international currency instead of gold, the structure of banking changed. Debt pyramiding soared and credit quality plunged into the toxic category of “liars’ loans,” as the value of money became increasingly “paper” based.

Way back during the early days of banking, in medieval times, wealthy bankers lent to kings and princes as their major customers. This relationship has since reversed. Now, banks in need rely on governments for funding. The risk has effectively moved onto the taxpayer as has happened with bank bailouts since the 2008 financial crisis caused by bad private-sector loans and gambles. Now it is happening in Europe where banks have to saved from going bankrupt.

As Bloomberg recently pointed out: “JPMorgan receives a government subsidy worth about $14 billion a year, according to research published by the International Monetary Fund and our own analysis of bank balance sheets. The money helps the bank pay big salaries and bonuses. More important[ly], it distorts markets, fueling crises such as the recent subprime-lending disaster and the sovereign-debt debacle that is now threatening to destroy the euro and sink the global economy.”

A system has also been allowed to develop where the profit of banks and investment funds no longer depend on astute, solid long-term investments. Financial markets have become dependent on risky derivative markets and electronically based so-called high-frequency trades, which now account for 70-80% of all equity trades.

Investment firms compete on the basis of speed, capturing gains on a fraction of a penny and, perhaps holding positions for only a few seconds, content with their daily earnings, they close out all positions at the end of each day.

In this sort of environment the temptation to manipulate basic factors like interest rates becomes just to big to resist.
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