Spain Watch, and Catalan independance

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 09 Jun 2012, 13:49

Update

The Guardian - 08/06/12

Urgency reflects growing consensus that Spanish collapse might start chain reaction that could topple Italy and destroy the euro.

Article continues ...

The end of the euro now appears to be in sight. All over bar the shouting?

energy-village · Post by **energy-village** » 09 Jun 2012, 14:33

Aurora wrote:Update
The Guardian - 08/06/12

Urgency reflects growing consensus that Spanish collapse might start chain reaction that could topple Italy and destroy the euro.

Article continues ...
The end of the euro now appears to be in sight. All over bar the shouting?

There is a view that the collapse of the Euro and the inevitable multiple defaults would topple UK banks as they are not likely to be able to cope with defaults on hundreds of billions worth of loans.

Presumably Britain would boot up the printing presses again but it would put huge pressure on sterling.

SleeperService · Post by **SleeperService** » 09 Jun 2012, 17:26

With the 10 biggest banks loaded with 3+ times Global GDP things have been recounted many times. It may be best to go to the root of the issue and pay off the mortgages directly of the toxic customers. Put the housing into a social fund and either charge rent on the former owners or offer mortgages that can be repaid.

The banks hit will be the fees and charges they've already taken, dodgy investments in the markets bankrolled from this non-exsistent 'asset', and fraud. Then let them go bang and we'll have a Bank Holiday to celebrate.

Must get back to sorting my problems out now

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 09 Jun 2012, 22:15

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/spain-gre ... ding-items

Good summary of the Spanish situation.

Like many things Euro related, dig a little further and it all amounts to very little!

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 09 Jun 2012, 22:54

What language was that in?

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 09 Jun 2012, 23:23

biffvernon wrote:What language was that in?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18382659

Luis de Guindos says Spain has agreed to officially request assistance, but denies this is a bailout.

Not Englisdh, judging by the transdlation.

peaceful_life · Post by **peaceful_life** » 10 Jun 2012, 02:53

Double Dutch.

You'd be forgiven for thinking things look like a corporate take over........... of futility.

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 10 Jun 2012, 08:17

BBC News - 10/06/12

Spain's decision to request a loan of up to 100bn euros ($125bn; £80bn) from eurozone funds to help shore up its struggling banks has won broad support.

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) said the bailout was big enough to restore credibility to Spain's banks.

Washington welcomed the measure as a vital step towards the "financial union" of the eurozone.

The move was agreed during emergency talks between eurozone finance ministers on Saturday.

Article continues ...

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 10 Jun 2012, 08:31

Do far too little, far too late.
Problem gets bigger.
Do a bit more, but still far too little, far too late.
Problem gets bigger.
Do a bit more to stop the thing from totally collapsing, but still far too little, far too late.
Problem gets bigger.

Ho hum...

ETA:

Let's be clear what has happened here. In the UK, and Ireland, and Greece, and many other places, the banks were rescued by transferring their massive bad debts onto national balance sheets, and then bailing out the respective governments with big "austerity strings" attached (or printing money in the case of non-euro countries.) Spain has refused to do this, because their economy is already on its knees. They have basically said "bail out our banks directly, or we'll let them collapse." And the Germans have blinked. 100 billion euros is nowhere near enough, but it will stop the system from collapsing next week. But what must the average Irish person think about this? Why should Spain get money with no strings attached? Answer - because they called Germany's bluff. The timing could not be more disastrous, because next week there is another general election in Greece. If the Greeks have any sense, they will back Syriza in a major way, and the Greeks can demand what Spain is getting.

This is what a messy breakup of a currency union looks like.

ziggy12345 · Post by **ziggy12345** » 10 Jun 2012, 10:24

So the UK banks get their interest paid from Germany via Spain... Works for me!

frank_begbie · Post by **frank_begbie** » 10 Jun 2012, 10:45

Well, I've got my umbrella up

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 10 Jun 2012, 11:26

ziggy12345 wrote:So the UK banks get their interest paid from Germany via Spain... Works for me!

That's about the bloody size of it.

It's all bonkers.

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 10 Jun 2012, 17:57

The Guardian - 10/06/12

Spain's banking bailout plays out a running theme of the eurozone crisis

Spain's call for assistance echoes a familiar pattern of denial, bond pressure then a crescendo of relief over agreed terms.

Article continues ...

The Independent - 10/06/12

Amid the bailouts, a United States of Europe takes shape

Never mind details of rescue funds, Eurobonds and the like, moves towards a federated Continent are now unstoppable, says veteran Independent on Sunday correspondent.

Article continues ...

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 10 Jun 2012, 20:11

Aurora wrote:
The Guardian - 10/06/12

Spain's banking bailout plays out a running theme of the eurozone crisis

Spain's call for assistance echoes a familiar pattern of denial, bond pressure then a crescendo of relief over agreed terms.

Article continues ...

The Independent - 10/06/12

Amid the bailouts, a United States of Europe takes shape

Never mind details of rescue funds, Eurobonds and the like, moves towards a federated Continent are now unstoppable, says veteran Independent on Sunday correspondent.

Article continues ...

The thing that those who would suggest that a democratically created EU federated state is possible are missing is that continental sized nation states are not in any way a natural thing. They will never be spontaneously created by the will of the people. They are only ever created at the end of a sword or barrel of a gun. Given a century of two of brutal imposition, eventually people forget about how this state of affairs was forced on them and come to view the arrangement as "normal". Even then, there is always a tendency for rot to set in from the inside and for it to break up again (See the UK for details).

This is why a fully fledged EU state cannot be smuggled through under the radar of the people of that continent. Either it will be done at the point of a gun, or it wont happen.

energy-village · Post by **energy-village** » 10 Jun 2012, 23:26

stevecook172001 wrote:This is why a fully fledged EU state cannot be smuggled through under the radar of the people of that continent. Either it will be done at the point of a gun, or it wont happen.

Or possibly a major crash and emergency legislation.

Most of the populous will beg for help, if they're desperate enough, from whatever body can provide it.