Tarrel wrote:Some people calling in were worried purely about their holiday plans in Greece and whether they should buy their Euros now or wait till later.
Sometimes, the sheeple manage to demonstrate a level of complacency and a lack of empathy which I find truly staggering.
I find listening to Moneybox does nasty things to my blood pressure for this reason.
At the risk of repeating myself I think there's an element of not seeing the wood for the trees here.
Most of the debt in Greece (and elsewhere) has been lent at interest rates that completely underestimated the risk the loans represented. Traditionally interest was viewed as profit AND a contribution to a default (contingency) fund. Recently this would have made loans very unattractive so lower than expected interest was set as a teaser. When this loan couldn't be paid a further loan is offered at a higher rate of interest to cover repayments.
This happened on a much larger scale with business and personal finance where the loan book (not including interest) could be several times GDP.
As the traditional bankers would have had kittens over this pattern they have been removed in favour of banking unqualified (usually) 'rocket scientists' who really believed they had found a new way of doing things....They haven't. We can see that now.
There is no use arguing over who the debt belongs to as there is, and never has been, a cat in hells chance of it being paid back in full.
Greece is simply the first European country to hit reality. I have no foresight but I can add up and see what has happened.
SleeperService wrote:
....There is no use arguing over who the debt belongs to as there is, and never has been, a cat in hells chance of it being paid back in full.....
The right question is 'What is the most equitable way to share out the remaining resources of society once default has been acknowledged?'
The answer depends on who the real creditors are, are they pension funds for the masses, or are they oil exporting sovereign wealth funds, or are they privately owned (banker's) assets? Is it even possible to work it out ?
RalphW wrote:The right question is 'What is the most equitable way to share out the remaining resources of society once default has been acknowledged?'
The answer depends on who the real creditors are, are they pension funds for the masses, or are they oil exporting sovereign wealth funds, or are they privately owned (banker's) assets? Is it even possible to work it out ?
This is what is is all coming down to. The various unrest around the world, the occupy movements and all the rest. All of this is about the beginning of a fight over how the scraps are to be distributed. Those at the top are trying to keep the status-quo power differentials in place as the cake gets smaller. Those at the bottom are kicking back.
RalphW wrote:The right question is 'What is the most equitable way to share out the remaining resources of society once default has been acknowledged?'
The answer depends on who the real creditors are, are they pension funds for the masses, or are they oil exporting sovereign wealth funds, or are they privately owned (banker's) assets? Is it even possible to work it out ?
This is what is is all coming down to. The various unrest around the world, the occupy movements and all the rest. All of this is about the beginning of a fight over how the scraps are to be distributed. Those at the top are trying to keep the status-quo power differentials in place as the cake gets smaller. Those at the bottom are kicking back.
Spot on, Steve.
The tragedy is that many impoverished countries will be fed to the lions long before the sheeple in the West have to suffer the inevitable downturn in resources.
Have you considered that your pension will probably vanish if there is wide spread default?
Also public pensions will take a serious hit.
Or do we think only fat cat bankers will be made poorer?
I gave away a sizable proportion of my earnings by being conned into the pensions scam. I have written off that money down to experience; the pots grow smaller year on year, so much so that I believe I'll end up owing them due to charges and levies being exacted on them.
As for public pensions, yes, I don't expect anything there either; I'll take what comes. I'll survive as best I can.
This is why I'm all for resetting the system, mass default, abolishing the euro as a peoples' currency.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
The pensions of most people are also toast. Last year my pension fund increased by £104 which was about what I paid in two weeks. We've seen TPTB sell off Nationalised assets, build up huge liabilities for the future of which PFI is just one example etc etc.
Enough. These people don't care about us, they do care about the money we have that they want. That's it. The Fat Bankers will suffer a tiny bit but most of us have lost everything. I suspect that includes you as well.
@ emordnilap
I wish I could be as philisophical as you seem to be. But I'm not.
FWIW I think Aurora and Steve have nailed it. God help us all.
I wish I could be as philisophical as you seem to be. But I'm not.
It comes back to the old 'doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always get in'. They end up the same. Once they're in, they're told what the story is and co-opted, meaning my - every little person's - vote was wasted. Once you accept that, you can happily tell them to fúck themselves.
They might badger me for levies, taxes, charges, blood, flesh and compliance but I will do my best to subvert their badgering without wasting too much of my short life on it.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
How often do you hear the advice, "never get a loan to pay another loan off"
The real tragedy is, there's millions of people that still think, once we're over this rough patch, things will eventually return to normal.
Like someone has said, as long as its happening to someone else, they think they will be safe.
Its like Climate Change, "so what, its only a little island in the middle of the Pacific"
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
The real tragedy is, there's millions of people that still think, once we're over this rough patch, things will eventually return to normal.
Patch? Return to normal? You really are a card. What I don't understand is how we can stand, teetering, on the edge of the cliff, without falling over it.
UE that seems a bit of a messy site to me. It's a struggle, and if there's one thing you don't do if you are trying to inform people, is to make it difficult.
Last edited by woodburner on 21 May 2012, 21:58, edited 1 time in total.
Sometimes, the sheeple manage to demonstrate a level of complacency and a lack of empathy which I find truly staggering.
