Greece Watch...

[Little John]

You, it would appear, are on the side of an unelected EU elite who, for reasons that are nothing to do with saving Greece's sorry arse but have everything to do with saving the banking systems of their own countries' irresponsible and under-regulated banking systems, are attempting to do away with democracy and the sovereign right of a nation's people to decide their own fate.

Shame on them and shame on you.

You are wrong.

Again.

I have always maintained that the bailout for Greece was just a thinly disguised bailout for the banks that lent them the money.

I have also always maintained that the Greeks have no one to blame but themselves.

I wouldn't lend Greece another penny unless I had control over where they spent it. Given their track record of profligacy who would?

I know blame and responsibility are difficult areas for lefties to understand but do try.

The above illustrates a singlular of lack of understanding of what's really going on with Greece and the bailouts. Greece is not being lent money. Their banking system is being kept afloat so that the banking systems of Germany et al do not collapse. In turn, the Greek people are expected to pay for keeping those foreign banking systems afloat with years of EU imposed austerity. Don't misunderstand me here, austerity is coming to Greece whatever happens. However, not all austerity is the same.

Nonetheless, putting all of the above aside, if you are aware of the real reason for the bailouts and the EU imposed austerity, then it logically follows that you would have little problem with Greece's people being given the real democratic choice of sticking with the bailouts and the EU imposed austerity or rejecting the bailouts and facing self imposed austerity and default?

If not, why not?

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Of course the Greek electorate are free to elect who ever they want.

Similarly the European tax payers are free to tell Greece that they are not getting any more money if they vote in a left wing government.

The ECB is more than capable of bailing out the European banks without having to pass the money through Greek hands first. However if the money went straight to the banks than no one would roll over Greek debt and Greek cash flow would dry up. The Greek problem is as much about cash flow as it is about debt levels and as every red blooded capitalist knows cash flow kills more companies than debt ever does.

Every Greek has the option to stand for parliament and offer a real alternative. The Greeks hardly need us to tell them how to run their democracy but they do seem to need a lot of help in balancing the books.

[Little John]

Of course the Greek electorate are free to elect who ever they want.

Similarly the European tax payers are free to tell Greece that they are not getting any more money if they vote in a left wing government.

The ECB is more than capable of bailing out the European banks without having to pass the money through Greek hands first. However if the money went straight to the banks than no one would roll over Greek debt and Greek cash flow would dry up. The Greek problem is as much about cash flow as it is about debt levels and as every red blooded capitalist knows cash flow kills more companies than debt ever does.

Every Greek has the option to stand for parliament and offer a real alternative. The Greeks hardly need us to tell them how to run their democracy but they do seem to need a lot of help in balancing the books.

Again, this illustrates a lack of understanding of the scale of this. The ECB cannot bail out the whole European banking system. No-one can. The debts are too large. Or, at least, if they attempted to then the whole house of cards would come inflationarily crashing down on a scale that would make the Wiemar Republic debacle look like a mere aperitif to the main course. If you think Greece's problems are large, take a look at Spain's. If Spain goes down it's game over.

Instead, they are hoping to keep the boat afloat long enough for them to inflate the debt away as quickly as they dare and also in order to allow time for growth to swallow the debts up. Part of that strategy is the elimination of any hope Greece may have of recovery through a return to a devalued Drachma and the possibility of becoming competitive in the world in the one thing it has always had to offer. Namely tourism. Instead, Greece is being sacrificed in order to save a dysfunctional and corrupt EU/global banking system.

Of course, growth is never going to actually come back for reasons well discussed and understood on here. But that's another, though not unrelated, story.

[biffvernon]

Surely austerity is coming to all of us but the more we can dump it on the Greeks the longer we put off feeling it ourselves. We're playing the game of Last Man Standing.

[Little John]

Surely austerity is coming to all of us but the more we can dump it on the Greeks the longer we put off feeling it ourselves. We're playing the game of Last Man Standing.

Exactly.

[Tarrel]

Surely austerity is coming to all of us but the more we can dump it on the Greeks the longer we put off feeling it ourselves. We're playing the game of Last Man Standing.

And very ugly it is too. I was listening to "money box" on the radio yesterday, and they were discussing - guess what - the Eurozone crisis. Some people calling in were worried purely about their holiday plans in Greece and whether they should buy their Euros now or wait till later. I wonder how many average Greeks are going to be holidaying abroad this year.

[UndercoverElephant]

Surely austerity is coming to all of us but the more we can dump it on the Greeks the longer we put off feeling it ourselves. We're playing the game of Last Man Standing.

And very ugly it is too. I was listening to "money box" on the radio yesterday, and they were discussing - guess what - the Eurozone crisis. Some people calling in were worried purely about their holiday plans in Greece and whether they should buy their Euros now or wait till later. I wonder how many average Greeks are going to be holidaying abroad this year.

Most Greeks never did much in the way of holidaying abroad anyway. They go to the islands.

[Aurora]

Some people calling in were worried purely about their holiday plans in Greece and whether they should buy their Euros now or wait till later.

Sometimes, the sheeple manage to demonstrate a level of complacency and a lack of empathy which I find truly staggering.

[biffvernon]

Yes... but fact is Greece will be a cheaper place to go to and the Greek hotel and cafe owners will probably be pleased to see you.

I'm not sure that cancelling one's holiday is the best way to show empathy.

(Not that I have any intention of going as far as that for a holiday.)

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Again, this illustrates a lack of understanding of the scale of this. The ECB cannot bail out the whole European banking system. No-one can. The debts are too large. Or, at least, if they attempted to then the whole house of cards would come inflationarily crashing down on a scale that would make the Wiemar Republic debacle look like a mere aperitif to the main course. If you think Greece's problems are large, take a look at Spain's. If Spain goes down it's game over.

Instead, they are hoping to keep the boat afloat long enough for them to inflate the debt away as quickly as they dare and also in order to allow time for growth to swallow the debts up. Part of that strategy is the elimination of any hope Greece may have of recovery through a return to a devalued Drachma and the possibility of becoming competitive in the world in the one thing it has always had to offer. Namely tourism. Instead, Greece is being sacrificed in order to save a dysfunctional and corrupt EU/global banking system.

Hang on.

You are suggesting that the ECB, source of all euros and probably a corner stone in a banking conspiracy spanning the globe, wants to pursue a policy of inflating away their own currency?

Greece's 11 million people, of whom 1/3rd work for the Greek government, owe a spectacular €400,000,000,000.

Even if they create a new Drachma they will still owe €400,000,000,000.

The austerity is about making sure this debt doesn't get any bigger which is mostly about liberating government from the pensions of it's workers by privatising most everything.

In short doing what Maggie did.

I'm sure someone will be along soon to work out how close to Greek debt we'd be if we hadn't sold everything off when we did.

[Aurora]

Yes... but fact is Greece will be a cheaper place to go to and the Greek hotel and cafe owners will probably be pleased to see you.

I'm not sure that cancelling one's holiday is the best way to show empathy.

I totally agree. I'm just disappointed to find that so many 'Brits' are obviously more preoccupied with their holiday plans than they are about the desperate situation facing many Greek people who are now facing abject poverty.

My guess is that, in the short term at least, many tourists will actually stay away for fear of being robbed, particularly in the centres of Athens and Piraeus.

[Little John]

Again, this illustrates a lack of understanding of the scale of this. The ECB cannot bail out the whole European banking system. No-one can. The debts are too large. Or, at least, if they attempted to then the whole house of cards would come inflationarily crashing down on a scale that would make the Wiemar Republic debacle look like a mere aperitif to the main course. If you think Greece's problems are large, take a look at Spain's. If Spain goes down it's game over.

Instead, they are hoping to keep the boat afloat long enough for them to inflate the debt away as quickly as they dare and also in order to allow time for growth to swallow the debts up. Part of that strategy is the elimination of any hope Greece may have of recovery through a return to a devalued Drachma and the possibility of becoming competitive in the world in the one thing it has always had to offer. Namely tourism. Instead, Greece is being sacrificed in order to save a dysfunctional and corrupt EU/global banking system.

Hang on.

You are suggesting that the ECB, source of all euros and probably a corner stone in a banking conspiracy spanning the globe, wants to pursue a policy of inflating away their own currency?

Greece's 11 million people, of whom 1/3rd work for the Greek government, owe a spectacular €400,000,000,000.

Even if they create a new Drachma they will still owe €400,000,000,000.

The austerity is about making sure this debt doesn't get any bigger which is mostly about liberating government from the pensions of it's workers by privatising most everything.

In short doing what Maggie did.

I'm sure someone will be along soon to work out how close to Greek debt we'd be if we hadn't sold everything off when we did.

Regarding Thatcher. She did nothing special and certainly nothing that would stand this country in good stead for the future. A fact born out by the future.

Instead of attempting to reposition us as a manufacturer of high end goods in the world, she took the cheap and easy option. She chose to sell off all of the family silver and to live off the back of the one time bonanza of North Sea oil. In the meantime she allowed, nay actively encouraged, the decline of our manufacturing base. Finally, to top it off, she instigated the "Big Bang" deregulation of the City; the very start of the road to hell that has led us to the impasse we currently find ourselves in. By the time New Labour came to power, the cupboard was bare. There were no more easy assets to sell off and North Sea oil was in terminal decline. The only show left in town was an already dangerously deregulated financial sector. Labour, along with many other Western governments, decided that this was the easiest way to keep the party going and so the last twenty years of "growth" in the West have been on the back of debt.

[kenneal - lagger]

Ah! The benefits of hindsight!!

The elephant in the room in relation to Greek debt is the existence of billions of dollars worth of Credit Default Swaps which will pay out in the event of a Greek default. These probably dwarf the losses of the banks but no one really knows what is out there. CDS liabilities are said to dwarf the economic systems of the whole world.

[biffvernon]

Ah! The benefits of hindsight!!

Some of us have a better track record of foresight than others.

[Little John]

Ah! The benefits of hindsight!!

The elephant in the room in relation to Greek debt is the existence of billions of dollars worth of Credit Default Swaps which will pay out in the event of a Greek default. These probably dwarf the losses of the banks but no one really knows what is out there. CDS liabilities are said to dwarf the economic systems of the whole world.

I agree with this. It is, in large part. about those CDS's. which is why Greece is being sacrificed in order to keep the nightmare scenario of them being triggered at bay.

However, this whole stinking pile of debt ridden corruption needs to fall. It needs to be utterly destroyed so we can find out how poor we really are and attempt to rebuild from the ashes.