Greece Watch...

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 18 May 2012, 08:16

Cartoon courtesy of The Guardian - 18/05/12

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 18 May 2012, 18:57

The Guardian - 18/05/12

Angela Merkel suggests Greece holds euro referendum

See: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012 ... n#block-33

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 18 May 2012, 19:59

The Greeks want all the benefits of the Euro but without the hassle. They'd vote yes to the Euro and No to the austerity. Mrs Merkel won't get round it that way.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 18 May 2012, 21:00

kenneal - lagger wrote:The Greeks want all the benefits of the Euro but without the hassle. They'd vote yes to the Euro and No to the austerity. Mrs Merkel won't get round it that way.

That obviously wouldn't be the question that is asked. The election already demonstrates what the result of such a referendum would be, so it would be pointless. They must be asked to make the real choice that is on offer.

Although the way things are going, we may reach a breaking point before the election can be held.

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 18 May 2012, 21:39

But that's the point. They will always vote for somebody else to pay and it will always be the fault of somebody else when it goes wrong. Corrupt politicians, inept businessmen, scrounging foreigners, lazy youth, overpaid bankers. Anyone but them.

The parallels with other recessions are stark.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 18 May 2012, 23:11

JavaScriptDonkey wrote:But that's the point. They will always vote for somebody else to pay and it will always be the fault of somebody else when it goes wrong. Corrupt politicians, inept businessmen, scrounging foreigners, lazy youth, overpaid bankers. Anyone but them.

The parallels with other recessions are stark.

I think this is going to end with a run on the Greek banks which will force Greece out of the eurozone. So for individual Greeks, the choice will not be which politician to vote for but what to do with their own savings held in Greek banks. The worse the situation gets, the greater the motivation to withdraw money. And the more money gets withdrawn, the worse the situation gets. So the question they will end up asking themselves is "Which do I care about most - doing my bit to try to keep Greece in the eurozone or making sure my own savings don't get automatically converted to New Drachmas?"

I personally can't quite understand why anybody would leave any money at all in a Greek bank right now.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 18 May 2012, 23:17

JavaScriptDonkey wrote:But that's the point. They will always vote for somebody else to pay and it will always be the fault of somebody else when it goes wrong. Corrupt politicians, inept businessmen, scrounging foreigners, lazy youth, overpaid bankers. Anyone but them.

The parallels with other recessions are stark.

The Greek people have not been presented with the real choice they face. Namely, take the EU bailout and face an EU imposed austerity. Or, do not take the EU bailout and face an austerity born of default. Either way, austerity cannot be avoided. The only things that are under the Greeks' control are the source of that austerity and how equitably it is distributed across Greek society.

If I were a Greek, I would opt for default and all that came with it, no matter how painful that may be in terms of the wiping out of savings etc. At least my country could devalue and begin to climb out of the hole it is in no matter how long it took and, most importantly, it would be on my own country's sovereign terms and not on the terms of unelected foreigners.

But then, I am not a Greek and what so what I would choose to do is irrelevant. The point is that the Greek people need to be given this choice and then their decision must be democratically obeyed.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 19 May 2012, 00:56

UndercoverElephant wrote:
JavaScriptDonkey wrote:But that's the point. They will always vote for somebody else to pay and it will always be the fault of somebody else when it goes wrong. Corrupt politicians, inept businessmen, scrounging foreigners, lazy youth, overpaid bankers. Anyone but them.

The parallels with other recessions are stark.
I think this is going to end with a run on the Greek banks which will force Greece out of the eurozone. So for individual Greeks, the choice will not be which politician to vote for but what to do with their own savings held in Greek banks. The worse the situation gets, the greater the motivation to withdraw money. And the more money gets withdrawn, the worse the situation gets. So the question they will end up asking themselves is "Which do I care about most - doing my bit to try to keep Greece in the eurozone or making sure my own savings don't get automatically converted to New Drachmas?"

I personally can't quite understand why anybody would leave any money at all in a Greek bank right now.

The charade of Greek solvency is very nearly over and for Greece's sake I hope this means, no matter how unbelievably painful it will be in the short to medium term, that they can begin to climb out of the hole they are in. The start of that climb begins with facing up to the stark reality of the limited choices they have and that reality is just about to hit.

Big time.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 19 May 2012, 02:23

I can't wait for the Greeks to go back to the drachma. I'll be able to afford to go there on holiday again. Many others will feel the same and many of the people who now go to Turkey because it's cheaper will go back to Greece.

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 19 May 2012, 07:40

Cartoon courtesy of The Independent - 19/05/12

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 19 May 2012, 17:01

stevecook172001 wrote: The Greek people have not been presented with the real choice they face

Whereas I maintain that there is no 'Greek people'. That isn't some Internationalist esoteric point but rather a view that each and every Greek will unfailing vote for whatever solution is best for them.

They will not vote for what is best for their neighbours or for their country - only what is best for them.

For individual Greeks that is mostly all about staying in the Euro AND not paying off their debts.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 19 May 2012, 21:43

JavaScriptDonkey wrote:
stevecook172001 wrote: The Greek people have not been presented with the real choice they face
Whereas I maintain that there is no 'Greek people'. That isn't some Internationalist esoteric point but rather a view that each and every Greek will unfailing vote for whatever solution is best for them.

They will not vote for what is best for their neighbours or for their country - only what is best for them.

For individual Greeks that is mostly all about staying in the Euro AND not paying off their debts.

Of course they want to have their cake and eat it. As it would be the case with any people anywhere in such circumstances. What on earth would you expect them to want? However, since they have not been presented with the plain and stark alternatives that really face them but have, instead, had one of those alternatives forced upon them, neither you nor I are in a position to say which of those two choices they would elect if given the chance. Also, whichever of those two alternative you or I may consider is the best choice for Greece and its people is also irrelevant since we are not Greeks and so it is not our business to tell them or, in the case of EU project engineers, force them to go down the road of one of those alternatives. It is for the Greek people to decide, for good or for ill.

You, it would appear, are on the side of an unelected EU elite who, for reasons that are nothing to do with saving Greece's sorry arse but have everything to do with saving the banking systems of their own countries' irresponsible and under-regulated banking systems, are attempting to do away with democracy and the sovereign right of a nation's people to decide their own fate.

Shame on them and shame on you.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 20 May 2012, 07:52

Seems to me as though some non-Greek folk are trying to tell the Greeks that their election is a referendum on Euro membership while some Greek folk are thinking it's more a referendum on whether to support the global financial system.

And it further seems to me that the smart, if perhaps selfish, thing to do is to milk global financial system for all you can get away with and then jump ship when one is rumbled.

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 20 May 2012, 07:58

Cartoon courtesy of The Independent - 20/05/12

BBC News - 20/05/12

In a statement, the G8 group said it agreed "on the importance of a strong and cohesive eurozone for global stability and recovery, and we affirm our interest in Greece remaining in the eurozone while respecting its commitments".

JavaScriptDonkey · Post by **JavaScriptDonkey** » 20 May 2012, 14:27

stevecook172001 wrote: You, it would appear, are on the side of an unelected EU elite who, for reasons that are nothing to do with saving Greece's sorry arse but have everything to do with saving the banking systems of their own countries' irresponsible and under-regulated banking systems, are attempting to do away with democracy and the sovereign right of a nation's people to decide their own fate.

Shame on them and shame on you.

You are wrong.

Again.

I have always maintained that the bailout for Greece was just a thinly disguised bailout for the banks that lent them the money.

I have also always maintained that the Greeks have no one to blame but themselves.

I wouldn't lend Greece another penny unless I had control over where they spent it. Given their track record of profligacy who would?

I know blame and responsibility are difficult areas for lefties to understand but do try.