Thorium - a technological game-changer?

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hodson2k9
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Post by hodson2k9 »

mobbsey wrote:
Lord Beria3 wrote:A cautiously optimistic article from a PO writer and somebody with a superb record in writing about PO for years now.
Worth taking seriously.
No it isn't!

What all the cold fusion people ignore is the fact that any natural phenomena, especially one involving ambient conditions rather than specialised circumstances, will always exhibit itself naturally within the universe without human intervention. OK, so stars are an example of fusion, but long before humans even existed there was already a natural thermal fission reactor in existence in Africa producing heat.

In a universe that is relatively cold, you would expect that cold fusion would be popping up all over the place to present curious anomalies of energy accounting -- but it doesn't. For example, how likely was it that ancient cyanobacteria were able to develop photosynthesis?; and on that basis why is it that other ambient temperature physical phenomena such as "cold fusion" have not have been incorporated into living processes? If it were possible you can bet that nature would be there before us to naturally exploit the principle, particularly one which as a source of energy confers such a significant biological advantage.

On the basis that we don't find this phenomena cropping up naturally I think we can discount the idea of "cold" fusion.
Its not called cold fusion its called Low energy nuclear reactions (LENR), and to be fair know one has a clue whats going on so that name is probably wrong for the phenomena thats occuring.

For example robert godes (from brillouin) says that "cold fusion" definitely is not an accurate name for it, and neither is LENR. It does not involved conventional nuclear fission or hot nuclear fusion processes. He has renamed the process Controlled Electron Capture Reactions or CECR, or "phonon- moderated hydrogen reactions."

His theory goes like this: "A tiny amount of hydrogen protons are converted into neutrons. These newly produced neutrons are soon captured by hydrogen ions or other atoms in a metallic (e.g. nickel) lattice near to where the hydrogen ions were converted to neutrons. The captured neutrons generate heat because the new atoms that are one neutron heavier shed excess binding energy as heat to the lattice, resulting in a dramatically clean, low-cost, hi-quality heat output."

This could also be wrong, this is just one theroy out of the many out there. The point is know one really knows whats going on, weather this technology will or even can lead to successful commercialisation who knows, it might it might not.

Why don't you build the italian high schools athanor cell? See what happens.

O and "cold" fusion is not an idea its been successfully repeated and demonstrated time after time by reputable and independant scientists and big organisations like mitsibushi, toyota, nasa, us navy etc (also if its not to be taken serious then why are these big organisations taking it serious? especially Mitsubishi who seem to know/have more than what they are letting on). The only thing open for question is weather it can be 1 understood properly, 2 controlled and 3 become a useful energy form.

For the record i don't think LENR (even if can be commercialised) is a magic bullet that is going to "save us". I follow the story because its interesting and im courious to see whats going on in the said phenomena.
"Unfortunately, the Fed can't print oil"
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mobbsey
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Post by mobbsey »

hodson2k9 wrote:Its not called cold fusion its called Low energy nuclear reactions (LENR)
You sat tomato, I say tomatoe... If you search on this subject you'll find all sorts of references back to cold fusion.
hodson2k9 wrote:His theory goes like this: "A tiny amount of hydrogen protons are converted into neutrons. These newly produced neutrons are soon captured by hydrogen ions or other atoms in a metallic (e.g. nickel) lattice near to where the hydrogen ions were converted to neutrons. The captured neutrons generate heat because the new atoms that are one neutron heavier shed excess binding energy as heat to the lattice, resulting in a dramatically clean, low-cost, hi-quality heat output."
Sorry, but you'd get more energy if you anaerobically digested that idea! :wink:

Neutron capture/creation is an energy sink, not an energy source! (because it's moving up the energy/matter quality curve, not down). Hot fusion gets around this by 'recycling' the neutrons from deuterium/tritium to make helium -- which is why hot fusion doesn't use 'hydrogen' as such, it uses heavy hydrogen isotopes. Adding a neutron to a hydrogen nucleus requires either an external neutron source (e.g. conventional slow/fast neutron capture) or energising the nucleus by some similar means at the quantum level. You can't just stick a proton and an electron together in free space to make a new particle -- it requires a lot of energy and a confining strong nuclear field to do that! Even so, doing that at low temperature isn't going to produce a usable level of of energy because of the low qualitative state of the matter involved (system efficiency is boosted by having a high potential difference between input and output -- which this system doesn't have).
hodson2k9 wrote:Why don't you build the italian high schools athanor cell? See what happens.
I've seen the design of these things -- it's a very expensive way of electrolysing a salt!

I keep an eye on the "alternative" or "suppressed" energy scene generally because so many people get distracted by this stuff. The fact is that it's bullshit -- primarily for the reason I said before. If these processes worked at ambient energy levels we'd see them in nature, just like photosynthesis, cation exchange, spontaneous fission/decay, etc.

If people invested half the time and effort into trying to do without energy and resources as part of their lives, rather than trying to wish away the shortages with ever more dodgy conspiracy theories to try and create "more", we'd solve humanity's problems far more easily.

The whole point of LENR, believing that wind power will save us, or climate change/peak oil denial, is that its a form of psychological distraction to avoid accepting the truth. It's like a job that you must absolutely get on with, but you invent all sorts of other things you have to do first in order to avoid getting on and doing it. And just like every other example of humans stringing out everyday activities to fit the time available and avoid what they should be doing, these ideas are just as futile.
hodson2k9 wrote:For the record i don't think LENR (even if can be commercialised) is a magic bullet that is going to "save us".
Fine, I get that you have doubts -- and that's great; doubt leads to questions, questions lead to the search for facts and its with facts that we can weight the truth.

But, set against what we know of the human system, don't give these people the time of day. If you step back and think of the general principles involved rather than just the jargon, you'll find that it's the basic principles that are the flaw in these ideas, not the specifics of what they're made of. And of course the biggest, greatest, mother-lode fact of all is that, even if we had a new source of energy, we'd just mess the world up even more -- and it wouldn't solve the primary resource shortage issue because that's an issue of the quality of matter, not the availability of energy.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

I guess I'm the only one here who has actually hosted a real live scientist conducting experiments on cold fusion in his garage. It involved a large bank of capacitors delivering a lot of electricity to a modified motor car carburettor to create an Abrikosov vortex within.

It didn't work.
hodson2k9
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Post by hodson2k9 »

mobbsey wrote:
hodson2k9 wrote:Its not called cold fusion its called Low energy nuclear reactions (LENR)
You sat tomato, I say tomatoe... If you search on this subject you'll find all sorts of references back to cold fusion.
hodson2k9 wrote:His theory goes like this: "A tiny amount of hydrogen protons are converted into neutrons. These newly produced neutrons are soon captured by hydrogen ions or other atoms in a metallic (e.g. nickel) lattice near to where the hydrogen ions were converted to neutrons. The captured neutrons generate heat because the new atoms that are one neutron heavier shed excess binding energy as heat to the lattice, resulting in a dramatically clean, low-cost, hi-quality heat output."
Sorry, but you'd get more energy if you anaerobically digested that idea! :wink:

Neutron capture/creation is an energy sink, not an energy source! (because it's moving up the energy/matter quality curve, not down). Hot fusion gets around this by 'recycling' the neutrons from deuterium/tritium to make helium -- which is why hot fusion doesn't use 'hydrogen' as such, it uses heavy hydrogen isotopes. Adding a neutron to a hydrogen nucleus requires either an external neutron source (e.g. conventional slow/fast neutron capture) or energising the nucleus by some similar means at the quantum level. You can't just stick a proton and an electron together in free space to make a new particle -- it requires a lot of energy and a confining strong nuclear field to do that! Even so, doing that at low temperature isn't going to produce a usable level of of energy because of the low qualitative state of the matter involved (system efficiency is boosted by having a high potential difference between input and output -- which this system doesn't have).
hodson2k9 wrote:Why don't you build the italian high schools athanor cell? See what happens.
I've seen the design of these things -- it's a very expensive way of electrolysing a salt!

I keep an eye on the "alternative" or "suppressed" energy scene generally because so many people get distracted by this stuff. The fact is that it's bullshit -- primarily for the reason I said before. If these processes worked at ambient energy levels we'd see them in nature, just like photosynthesis, cation exchange, spontaneous fission/decay, etc.

If people invested half the time and effort into trying to do without energy and resources as part of their lives, rather than trying to wish away the shortages with ever more dodgy conspiracy theories to try and create "more", we'd solve humanity's problems far more easily.

The whole point of LENR, believing that wind power will save us, or climate change/peak oil denial, is that its a form of psychological distraction to avoid accepting the truth. It's like a job that you must absolutely get on with, but you invent all sorts of other things you have to do first in order to avoid getting on and doing it. And just like every other example of humans stringing out everyday activities to fit the time available and avoid what they should be doing, these ideas are just as futile.
hodson2k9 wrote:For the record i don't think LENR (even if can be commercialised) is a magic bullet that is going to "save us".
Fine, I get that you have doubts -- and that's great; doubt leads to questions, questions lead to the search for facts and its with facts that we can weight the truth.

But, set against what we know of the human system, don't give these people the time of day. If you step back and think of the general principles involved rather than just the jargon, you'll find that it's the basic principles that are the flaw in these ideas, not the specifics of what they're made of. And of course the biggest, greatest, mother-lode fact of all is that, even if we had a new source of energy, we'd just mess the world up even more -- and it wouldn't solve the primary resource shortage issue because that's an issue of the quality of matter, not the availability of energy.
Hi mobbsey,

I don't want to and im not going to get into a debate about this, im not here to convince sceptics that's it real. I couldn't care less weather people believe it or not . Time will tell who is right, i fully believe LENR is a real phenomenon i have no doubt about it what so ever i have seen enough to convince me and so i will continue to follow and post on the story. I also fully believe that within a year or 2 LENR will be accepted into main stream science weather they like it or not. As i said though successful commercialisation is a completely different matter all together.

:)
"Unfortunately, the Fed can't print oil"
---Ben Bernake (2011)
hodson2k9
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Post by hodson2k9 »

One thing Mobbsey, I couldn't really answer your 1st post about "natural phenomena" as I will admit my science knowledge is pretty limited so i posted your it up on a LENR board i visit, here is what some of the comments back were.
He should try this link: http://coldfusionnow.org/wp-content/upl ... dentsg.pdf
this gives a good basic introduction to LENR.
The references covers most,if not all of his objections. It runs about 50 pages, with 200+ references to publications documenting LENR in all sorts of environments, including biological.
Good reading! (and good riddance to illfounded scepticism)
Who is this guy? He seems totally out of date. A simple google search will bring a number of articles, books and papers on the matter of LENR in biological systems and in nature.

http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazi ... trans.html

Please also check the reference list below this article.

I can’t paste more links here (banned) but you can search for “Nuclear Fusion and Transmutation of Isotopes in Biological Systems
By Vladimir Vysotskii and Alla Kornilova “.

Recently there was a presentation on LENR in atmospheric lightning. Neutrons and gamma rays are produced during thunder storms. I can’t remember the author or paper, perhaps it was Celani.
This is an entirely specious argument. The fact is that this process seems to rely on free hydrogen and nickel metal (or deuterium/palladium etc.) under very particular circumstances which include stimulation in the form of heat and an electrical current or EM field.

Such substances and conditions could only exist deep within the Earth, where some form of ‘cold fusion’ may well take place. Unfortunately our knowledge of the Earth’s core is minimal, and we simply would not know about it. Perhaps some of the Earth’s core heat derives from CF, or perhaps it occurs naturally on other solid planets with significant amounts of hydrogen in the atmosphere. The fact that we humans haven’t knowingly observed it in nature most probably just reflects our limited knowledge.

This kind of self referencing argument belongs in the 19th century, not the 21st.
Cold fusion requires “specialized circumstances”. Certain nanostructures, pure materials, a certain temperature range and a trigger.

Also: doesn’t superconductivity not occur in nature either?
If CF requires non-melting temperature, metal and gaseous hydrogen, this combination of requirements is difficult to satisfy in the natural universe. Hydrogen gas can exist only on large bodies (giant planets and stars) whose gravity is sufficient to bind it. But such bodies have no solid surface where non-molten metal could be in contact with hydrogen.

Regarding living organisms, not even ordinary metal matrix is used by biology (except humans for their technology), so it is no wonder that CF isn’t.
Im not saying what these people are saying is true, im not sure! I just thought id see what people who know more than me said in response to your comment as i didn't have an answer.
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mobbsey
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Post by mobbsey »

hodson2k9 wrote:I don't want to and im not going to get into a debate about this
No, that's fine. I don't mean to intimidate -- and if I know more then its purely because I probably spend a lot more time and resources than most wading through all this crud, and I worked in engineering which gives me a propensity to want to rip things apart to see how they function.

As I said, given you have doubts you're a lot better off than many of the poor souls who get taken in by these scheisters.

The trouble is, they all the free energy/suppressed energy geeks all say "look at this web page" or "watch this video", but seldom does it answer any pertinent questions -- or explain anything of substance. If you look at the current "state of the science" on this stuff it's all about certain technologies or pilot projects developed by companies trying to sell to large corporations. In fact none of this is real "technology"; it's black box equipment where the salient details of its composition or operation are never revealed. Then of course they come back and talk "intellectual property", but that's just a smoke screen for dodgy gadgets, reinforced by the fact that none of them work sufficiently for patent offices to give them protection.

For example, the Italian bloke and his foil-wrapped experiments. They're claiming that they're turning nickel and hydrogen into copper. In fact, if you mix nickel powder, hydrogen gas, and mix in a few palladium or rare earth electrodes, what you're basically creating is a nickel-metal hydride battery. If you put current into that, you bet its going to get hot -- and if you disconnect the current then it'll probably run for a little while afterwards whilst it discharges. Even if it's a glorified NiMH battery, its still obeying the laws of thermodynamics -- and even if it did work, given that the embodied energy of nickel is about four times that of steel, by the time you deduct the energy to make the nickel for the process its not going to be a very promising energy source.
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